The “Law” of Attraction (Not)

Cosmic Connie alerted me to a blog posting by Joe Vitale, apparently one of the stars of “The Secret”. Joe asks rhetorically, “Is Attraction a Law?”, and answers in the affirmative using this example, comparing the Law of Attraction to gravity:

The people who say attraction is not a law cite examples such as, "I know gravity works. When I drop a book off a skyscraper, it will hit the ground. That's proof of the law of gravity."

Agreed.

They then go on to say, "When I try to attract something, sometimes I get it and sometimes I don't. So it isn't a law."

Not agreed.

Here's why.

Saying you tried to attract something and failed is like saying you tried to drop a book from a skyscraper to hit a particular spot and you missed. Because you missed the spot, you say gravity doesn't exist.

Oh boy. Not agreed Joe – not even close. Your argument is a false analogy. Newton’s Laws of Gravitation do not say that when you drop something (like a book, for example), it will land on a particular spot. What the Universal Law of Gravitation actually says is:

Every particle of matter in the universe attracts every other particle with a force which is directly proportional to the product of their masses and inversely proportional to the square of the distance between them.

This force of gravitational attraction between the two bodies acts along the line joining their centres. This force is hence mutual.

And there are precise specific mathematical formulae that describe these relationships, for example:

Consider two bodies of masses m 1 & m 2 with their centers separated by r. let F be the force of gravitational attraction between two bodies. According to newton's law of gravitation,

[snip]

F = G Mm/R²

These formulae (and others I have omitted), describe gravitation, and they always work every time – that’s why they are Laws. As I wrote before, if you replicate Newton’s experiments, you will find that gravity accelerates objects at exactly the rate predicted by the Law. The so-called “Law of Attraction” simply does not work like this. Actually, it doesn’t work at all – simply wishing for something will not make it appear, and pretending that it does and that this is a Law like gravity, is naive childish gibberish.

Comments

[Citizen Deux]

Vitale is out of his coconut tree. The Law of Attraction is improperly stated. It should read,

"Whatever a person focuses their mind upon, they will find themselves attracted to that thoguht or thing"

Simply, we "see" what we pay attention to in our lives. The reality of wish fufillment is another extension of the "lose weight overnight" scam or any number of get rich quick schemes.

I keep expecting the publishers of the Secret to issue a correction, indicating that the book is missing a chapter. The one in which people take action to pursue their wishes!

Yarg!

[mouse]

This is philosophy, not physics. What the hell is wrong with these people? And that's a totally rhetorical question BTW.

[Skeptico]

Citizen Deux:

If you focus your mind upon the correction with the missing chapter on how you need to take action etc, perhaps the chapter will appear.

Or perhaps not.

I am an old friend of Joe's but have a real disagreement with him about all this "Law" of Attraction stuff.

I'm pretty sure I wrote the post that inspired him to write his. In case you are interested, here is the link to what I had written:

http://blairwarren.com/blog/item/does_loa_work/

My argument made sense to me. But after thinking about what Joe wrote, it still does.

Love your blog, BTW.

[Ugo Cei]

I know the Law of Attraction is true and I can prove it. It is also scientifically sound in that it does make predictions, like:

I predict Joe Vitale will never fail to attract $97 from every sucker who is stupid enough to believe the drivel he puts forth in his book.

Now prove me wrong!

[Dee Bunker]

Reality exists -- even on the internet! WHEW! I've discovered people who actually understand science & critical/analytical thinking on the internet, outside of my own circle of friends. My hope for humankind is totally revived now.

I've read so much pure drivel on boards about "the secret to losing your mind" (particularly Oprah's two sites -- GAG) that I was ready to sue the posters' parents for setting them free into the world after their lobotomies.

Great site you have here!

[Joe Smith]

You've missed the point. He's saying that the Law of attraction works EVERYTIME, and when it does not its because it was IMPROPERLY APPLIED. His analogy holds. In his examples, gravity works perfectly, it just didn't work in the manner we anticipated or wanted. This was because of bad aim or wind currents or something. Joe says that if we don't get what we want, its because we didn't visualize properly, or we weren't positive, or we focussed on what we didn't want.

This is the *really* pernicous thing about the LOA...if you don't get your result, its your fault.

Yah... completely retarded.
"He's saying that the Law of attraction works EVERYTIME, and when it does not its because it was IMPROPERLY APPLIED."

The law of gravitation does work every time. The law doesn't state anything about where a fucking book hits when dropped from a building. Why don't you jackasses read a few REAL books. You can start with Physics and Calculus for dummies. After you're more educated, you'll look back and realize how stupid you're making yourselves out to be.

[Bronze Dog]

Anonny, are you so dense that you can't spot a dishonest ad hoc hypothesis?

At least when we drop a book from a building, we know it'll go downward. Throw in knowledge of the wind currents, terrain, and so forth, and we actually can make reasonable predictions of where the book will land.

The "law" of attraction can't predict anything whatsoever.

If anyone needs to crack open science and math books, it's you.

Oh, and while your here, want to get called out on your ignorance of quantum mechanics by Tom Foss or Infophile?

[HCN]

Let's not forget the total idiocy about neurology presented by John Vincent.

"You only use 10% of your brain, no wait... I meant your mind!"

What a maroon.

[Bronze Dog]

I just realized I messed up on your/you're. I sentence myself to 100 baps with a rolled-up newspaper.

[Intrigue]

The Law of Attraction is bullshit and I wasted my personal time to actually watch it (was I attracting bullshit at that time? hmm...); This "Law" is an unfalsifiable empirical claim (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falsifiability), meaning we cannot think of a case where it can be proved false (which is not a good thing) and this is only one of the criteria that is used to test any empirical claim, check out that link. In example, if we come up with the case that the law did not work, the blame goes on US! WE didn't apply the law correctly; It is therefore impossible to think of or observe a scenario whereby the "law" is false and therefore it fails as an empirical statement.

[Bronze Dog]

Excellently put, Intrigue. That's exactly the problem Anonny would like to pretend away.

[Johan]

Two things...

1. If I had to sum the entire thing up, it's that the Law of Attraction
is all about alignment. You've got to do the "work" if you want to
bring something info your life.

This is where I think people mess up, which gives the entire thing the
"MLM/Amway" kind of vibe. You can't just sit around eating junk food
and watching reruns and expect to live on the beach...regardless of what
the infomercials say.

People like Joe Vitale are out working. Bob Proctor is out working.
James Ray is out working.

2. I found a FREE book (yes, FREE) that helped me figure out all of
this. http://www.receivethebook.com/ has it and it's well worth the read.

And like I said, it's FREE. So you can't argue that the guy is trying
to take advantage of people looking for a "magic pill" or whatever else
I've been hearing over the last 2-3 weeks since this thing hit Oprah.

http://www.receivethebook.com/

[Passion4Life]

Listen...... I am not a scientist, but I do have an engineering degree. I don't know if the "Law of Attraction" is real or just a theory. What I do know, is that even if you don't believe in "The Law of Attraction" there is nothing wrong with inspiration, hope, positive thinking, good thoughts or great feelings. Last time I checked nothing negative came from any of these. You can argue about the "science" of it all you want, but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that if you better your thoughts and visualize what you want out of life (some of us call these goals) that your life will naturally get better and move in a positive direction!

[Rockstar Ryan]

there is nothing wrong with inspiration, hope, positive thinking, good thoughts or great feelings. Last time I checked nothing negative came from any of these.

No, the problem is thinking these feelings "attract" something. You really think that if you worry about being late to work you will wind up in a traffic jam? If so you're a moron. If not, then you understand where the problem in this fallacious thinking lies.

[Akusai]

I am not a scientist, but I do have an engineering degree.

This statement seems to imply that you think your engineering degree makes you somewhat qualified to speak about the topic at hand. Sorry, it doesn't. Science and engineering are two different fields. They use and understand the method of science to generate results. You use the results of that method in sort of a plug-and-chug way. Not only that, you go on in the rest of your comment to show how illiterate, or at least apathetic, you are when it comes to science and truth.

No offense to those engineers out there who are scientifically literate.

You can argue about the "science" of it all you want, but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that if you better your thoughts and visualize what you want out of life (some of us call these goals) that your life will naturally get better and move in a positive direction!

I hear this a lot and I don't think it's true. There are way too many things in life that are out of our control for simple "positive thinking" to necessarily make things better. It will probably make you feel better, and you can't argue with that, but I can think positively about and work tireless toward my goals, but unforeseen circumstances, like a car crash or a bout with cancer, could get in the way. More likely, some asshole would get in my way and all my work and positive thinking would be for nought. That being said, being positive and setting goals aren't bad; they just aren't a guarantee of success.

Let's assume for a moment, though, that positive thinking and goal-setting do work a good chunk of the time. This still is not the same as the message of "The Secret," which states that positive thinking has the power to change realty. They are not making a feel-good statement about a positive life philosophy. They are making a causal statement about the ability of thoughts to affect physical reality. "Think positively about getting a pony, and you will get a pony," they say. Not "Think positively about getting a pony, then work hard to save up the money, then go buy a pony."

You're right when you say that positive thinking and goal setting are not a bad thing, but this is not what "The Secret" is selling. The people responsible for this blather are selling a ridiculous claim about the nature of physical reality and your ability to alter it with your thoughts, and they are bilking people out of millions of dollars. To borrow a line from Tom Foss, life is not a game of Mage: The Ascension, no matter how much I might want it to be.

Don't come here pretending that we're just a bunch of curmudgeons who are so wedded to science that we want people to be miserable. You don't understand the core message of "The Secret," you don't understand or care about science, and you don't understand (or you intentionally misrepresent) our point of view. We do not, however much you might want to think, want to disprove love.

[HCN]

Akusai said: "No offense to those engineers out there who are scientifically literate."

:p ... Though some types of engineering do require a better backing in math and science other than some of the boiler plate or design by the book disciplines.

Passion4Life said "You can argue about the "science" of it all you want, but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that if you better your thoughts and visualize what you want out of life (some of us call these goals) that your life will naturally get better and move in a positive direction!"

Since I used to be a rocket scientist (as I said, some engineering disciplines do require a good science background), I can say this is full of baloney.

Actually, no matter what you do there will be setbacks. One of the reasons I am a FORMER rocket scientist is because I gave birth to a child with disabilities. This was definitely not something I tried to attract... but it happened.

There are things one can do when hit with setbacks. You can go through life cursing the world just like the guy who runs the "hatingautism" blog --- Or, you can adjust and find the good in the bad, learn from the experience and then carry on with life.

[Jimmy_Blue]

Johan said:
You've got to do the "work" if you want to bring something info your life.

Holy crap. 'Genius'. Who would have thought? If you want something, you have to 'work' for it. My god, its so 'original' and 'thought provoking'. You're 'right', I'm a 'believer'. All I have to do is 'work' hard. So I don't really need a 'secret' or a 'law' of attraction at all, do I?

People like Joe Vitale are out working. Bob Proctor is out working. James Ray is out working.

Sorry, I think you meant 'working'.

2. I found a FREE book (yes, FREE) that helped me figure out all of this. http://www.receivethebook.com/ has it and it's well worth the read.

Wow. I guess you don't have to 'work' for everything after all. You got 'understanding' for FREE.

So you can't argue that the guy is trying
to take advantage of people looking for a "magic pill" or whatever else
I've been hearing over the last 2-3 weeks since this thing hit Oprah.

Ok. How about we just argue he's a moron who is full of shit, then? Still, he seems to be attracting the sort of idiots he wants to so maybe there's something to it after all.

Passion4Life said:
Listen...... I am not a scientist, but I do have an engineering degree.

Oh well I'd better take your word for it then. I'll see your engineering degree and raise you a BA in History and Philosophy and studying for a masters in GIS. And I'm a qualified shooting coach. And a certified first aider. And I have my bronze swimming certificate. And an RAF swimming proficiency. See, my qualifications don't matter here either. But I can wave my willy with the best of them.

I don't know if the "Law of Attraction" is real or just a theory.

It's neither. It's closer to 'nonsense that gullible people believe'.

What I do know, is that even if you don't believe in "The Law of Attraction" there is nothing wrong with inspiration, hope, positive thinking, good thoughts or great feelings.

And while we're at it, just give peace a chance. If it feels good, then its ok.

Last time I checked nothing negative came from any of these.

You're right, I'm sure that none of the worst people in history ever felt 'inspired'.

You can argue about the "science" of it all you want, but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that if you better your thoughts and visualize what you want out of life (some of us call these goals) that your life will naturally get better and move in a positive direction!

What's with the explosion of False Quotes Syndrome in woo posts? So all I have to do is visualise my goals, and my life gets better? What happened to 'working' for them? Do I have to actually do anything, or just think about it in a nice way?

[HCN]

Hey! Right now I'm visualizing a completed basement bathroom. So this morning I picked up the sink and base, ordered the hand shower (spouse changed the criteria from previous request), arranged to get on the plumber's schedule, and then went to a salvage store to get a discounted towel rack ($15 instead of $150, woo hoo!). Then I researched cabinet options for the limited square footage.

Previously I have received bids from plumbers, ordered the sink (truly awesome, a cast iron laundry sink... good for hobbies), bought the faucet and discussed shower options. We have also arranged for an estimate from a tile contractor for the shower. I have also removed some wallboard to see what surprises are there, and am now removing part of a 2 by 4 so that the hot water supply can reache the showerhead (there is funny framing with a dropped ceiling for the existing wallboard can cover the heat ducts).

Along with visualizing finally completing this bathroom (that was roughed in when the house was built 14 years ago... where I worked on the design with Generic CADD that I handed over to the architect, who made it legal and got the permits from the city) --- I have written some large checks... with more to checks to write on my home equity line of credit account.

I now need to find where I can buy a bead curtain that I am visualizing to seperate the bathroom from the furnace room (it cannot block airflow).

[Akusai]

HCN-

I feel bad for my sort-of generalization about engineers earlier, so I'll give you a hand: I'm currently positively visualizing your bathroom. I'm using my positive life-energy to attract like positive energy, but going by the theory of homeopathics, I'm only making my positivalicious visualfications a tiny bit of the time, because less is more. It sure is a pretty bathroom. Oop! Now it's gone again.

I hope it helps.

[HCN]

Akusai, I will forgive your generalization... but only if you will stop visualizing on my basement bathroom.

Oh, my Ed! How dare you think such colors for my domicile! The homeopathics have made them too diluted. They are so washed out it looks more like a death warmed over. ;)

Now it is time to visualize a nice eight hour slumber. Good night.

[Big Al]

I lost something on eBay I really wanted last week. I guess it was nothing to do with the fact that the winner trumped my last bid with about one second to go, or that he has deeper pockets than me - he just wanted it more than me.

Hey, if we're invoking this homeopathic principle, doesn't that mean the less positively we think about something, the more likely we are to get it? So life-threatening diseases, divorce and bankruptcy must be shoo-ins!

Gotta love those diseases...

[science teacher]

I am a simple high school science teacher. Not a rocket scientist. But here is something I don't understand. Basic Chemistry, electrons and protons, opposites attract. Basic physics, magnets, south poles and north. Do they discuss this at all in "The Secret"?

[Big Al]

I suspect the answer will involve gravitation (every bit of mass attracts every other bit of mass), or some incoherent blather about Heisenberg's uncertainty principle.

I predict that the magic words "quantum", "energy" and "frequency" will also make an entrance.

[Winston Smith]

The loa is an old con from as far back as people. Religions use the same line: You'll see God if you believe. If you're not seeing God you must not be believing. The Bible makes sense to believers. If it sounds like fairy tales to you, you must not be a believer.

Every con uses heaping spoon fulls of the truth. Rush Limbaugh uses the truth to sell his attitude. Yes, it's true that the media could be better (he and his ilk never mention that we ALL have noticed this) and when he says this we think, "gee, he's a truth teller" and then he sells his bias... The Bible says, "as a man thinks, so he is". Yeah, sure, any of us could agree with that. Doesn't mean the Bible isn't a collection of old manuscripts put together in the year 90 at the council of Jamnia meant to manage people through superstitious feeling. Positive thinking gurus say, if you think the right thoughts, things will happen. It must be "the universe" doing it. Well, sure, we can look at that and think, gee, seems to be true. Orrrrr, perhaps we all know that self pity results in you sitting on the couch all day and perhaps we all know that not much is going to happen for you, except a lot of unpaid bills. And if you don't sit there feeling sorry for yourself and you go out and do something, well, gee, the probability that things will happen you your life just shot way up! Must be "the universe", sometimes pictured as a giant, muscle bound Geni... The loa sellers are right, if you go after what you want with a good attitude, rather than an attitude of, "why am I bothering?", then the LAWS OF PROBABILITY are such that it's almost a guarantee, (but not quite), that something will come of it. The laws of probability is something we already know about, but we can't say we can explain why some things don't make sense, like children getting their hands hacked off in Rwanda. We can't say, "they didn't play probability right". We can't explain it. Sometimes bad things happen. Did the toddlers in Rwanda think bad thoughts? Maybe Rhonda Byrne fell on hard times and, like some xian fundies, needed, I mean psycho needed, the universe to make sense; for their to be an EXPLANATION for this sh*t. I noticed that the positive thinking gurus, and Rhonda Byrne, are growing old. Gosh, they really must try not to focus so much on aging and death.

[Lucas Raleigh]

hey guys I know you dont believe that is for you to decide but the mind cannot produce solutions if you are blocking the mind from exploring so being blind will not allow you to see the picture, so if you want to understand the truth you must first unblock your mind and let it see for itself not your false ideas of how it does not work if you are to scared to try it. What do you have to lose besides your bad attitude you do it and it makes you a better person that is reward in itself......

when you cast negativity you get what you cast...... As Jesus once said do unto others as you would have them do unto you. when you are an rude so is the rest of the world when you cast doubt so does the rest of the world. Jesus also said to live ubundatly..... these are the rules of religion and the rules of the secret maybe jesus left us this secret when he said search for gods purpose for you this is what he was talking about...

Lucas Caine
Awakening Records
Recording Artist

[Jimmy_Blue]

So much woo, so little time. I'm sure Bronze Dog has a doggerel entry for almost every sentence you utter here, but we have the usual woo:

1. You're all closeminded.
2. You just don't see it because you don't want to.
3. Skeptics all have a bad attitude.
4. Believing will make you a better person.
5. Jesus did it.
6. You're all negative.
7. You're all rude.

And to top it off the abundant use of ellipses, poor punctuation and grammar, and the odd spelling mistake, sorry typo.

Do you bleevers all get your ideas from some sort of central woo repository and just use the cut and paste function?

Unless you have some real evidence to back up your assertions, you really are wasting your time here.

Here's just one tiny example of what you get wrong though.

You say:
when you cast doubt so does the rest of the world.

So, I doubt what you say, does that mean you do as well? Why say it then? If everyone else in the world doubts what you say but you, what do you think that tells you?

[Tom Foss]

Oh FSM, another one.

Look, we're all about treating other people the way we want to be treated. In fact, I'd say, in general, we're better at that than most religionists.

But that's not "The Secret." "The Secret" is anything but community-oriented like the golden rule; it's solipsistic. It's saying that the universe will cater to every individual's personal desires, no matter what. And ultimately, it's saying that you're responsible for everything that happens to you, as opposed to the people who "do unto" you, because you're the one who attracted those behaviors or those problems. That's crap, and it's not "negativity" to say so. It's not negativity to say "the universe isn't a magic genie that grants you your every wish, you have to work for things." It's not negativity to say "it's not a victim's fault that something happened to them."

We have unblocked our minds, Lucas. We look at the world as it is, not as we wish it to be. We examine reality through a methodological system of obtaining knowledge, where we constantly evaluate our preconceptions and our theories in light of new evidence. That's the very opposite of having a blocked mind. It's people who put blinders on and see the world the way they want it to be, as opposed to the way it actually is, who filter their perceptions through dogma, who are "blocked off." And that's a fairly precise definition of the supporters of "The Secret."

[Dobbs]

"when you cast negativity you get what you cast...... As Jesus once said do unto others as you would have them do unto you. when you are an rude so is the rest of the world when you cast doubt so does the rest of the world. Jesus also said to live ubundatly..... these are the rules of religion and the rules of the secret maybe jesus left us this secret when he said search for gods purpose for you this is what he was talking about..."

This does not generate insight, nor will it cultivate compassion. It also fails to initiate a relationship to depth. In fact the central idea of The Secret decreases ones compassionate and curious relationship to oneself, other people and the world at large, by reducing everything to the magical relationship between thoughts and “the universe.”

[Dobbs]

The idea that through merely focusing one's intention, one can have and do anything without limit, while inspiring-sounding is actually delusional, regressive and perpetuating of what both Buddhism and Psychotherapy see as an unhealthy relationship to reality.

The failure to include a discussion of the limits of intention and to introduce people to the concept of depth, of practice, of being in the kind of feedback loop with reality, is disastrous. It ends up unwittingly pinning adherents between the rock of surface level intention and the hard place of a world that actually doesn't work that way. Without a methodology for interpreting meaning and assessing depth, for coming to terms with feelings, disappointments and bringing expectations down to earth, one is left with a vicious cycle:misplaced faith in a grandiose, but erroneous magical belief coupled with a self-blaming response when it turns out, time and time again, not to work.

[Bronze Dog]

I would list the relevant Doggerel entries, but I get the spam filter. You'll see a lot of those on the list.

Think I may go over a few of these posts, since I imagine there's a lot of inspiration to be found.

Of course, I can do a little tu quoque and argue that our latest troll has obviously never dealt with a real skeptic: Just the parodies in his head, after he makes sure to put nonsense in between our lines.

One of the most celebrated skeptics, Carl Sagan, was one of the people who really opened me up to the sheer wonder of the universe. Woos want to kill that by convincing me the universe begins and ends with their flavor of the month.

[zms]

Most of you guys that say the Law of Attracton doesnt exist are wanting to be right not just want to know the truth. You guys need a life

[HCN]

Dear zms... I have a nice life, thank you very much.

I also have a pretty good grasp of English grammar, including the proper and actual use of punctuation.

One of the reasons for being able to live pretty well is because I was one of those annoying kids in high school who took all the hard courses like trigonometry, chemistry and physics. Plus I studied more than partied in college to get an engineering degree that allowed me to get a pretty good paying job.

That was from "doing"... not from wishing.

Now if you will excuse me, I have finished visualizing the wall color of the new bathroom. I am about to mix it up and apply it to the walls in time before going to volunteer at youngest child's school.

[Rockstar Ryan]

Most of you guys that say the Law of Attracton doesnt exist are wanting to be right not just want to know the truth.

OK. I really, really, really want you to come back and show us "the truth" with mounds of evidence, including double-blind studies.

If you don't, does that mean the "Law" of Attraction doesn't work?

You guys need a life

Please elaborate. Are you saying that I'm undead? I have proof that I am not:

While I am weak against fire, I am not weak against curative/restorative items.

[What-The?]

"Please elaborate. Are you saying that I'm undead? I have proof that I am not:"

I would be interested in seeing that "proof". No one (including science) even knows what life is. No one as even been able to explain it...Yet, you say that you have proof?

zms, you are 100% correct. But if they did get a life, they would not know what to do with it...haha.

Have you noticed the continuing claims by many on this Blog, that spelling errors, poor grammar, typos etc, make theories WRONG? According to many here, a theory that is expressed in writing and that writing contains errors, then the theory is wrong. So I am going to cause us all to drift off into space....Watch this..

Gwavetee! According to some here, that should cause gravity to no longer exist.

If you want a real giggle, zms, have a read of the "about" section of this site. The un-named webmaster (skeptico) claims that the World sometimes seems mad. It is the rest of the World that is mad...not him! Any reputable psychiatrist can tell you that such a belief indicates a mental illness.

[Rockstar Ryan]

Some moron said:

You guys need a life

I said:

Please elaborate. Are you saying that I'm undead? I have proof that I am not:

While I am weak against fire, I am not weak against curative/restorative items. (Final Fantasy joke)

Your retort:

No one (including science) even knows what life is. No one as even been able to explain it...Yet, you say that you have proof?

You, my friend, are definitively a complete moron now. You are seriously saying I need to prove I'm alive? Well, you may not think science has proven it, but Sesame Street has:

Well, a phone's not alive (no-no-no-no-no!), and a rock's not alive (no-no-no-no-no!).

But a plant is alive (yeah-yeah-yeah-yeah-yeah!), and a person is alive (yeah-yeah-yeah-yeah-yeah!)

Breathe in! Breathe out!

Make sense?

According to many here, a theory that is expressed in writing and that writing contains errors, then the theory is wrong.

Not so much. The fact that you make egregious claims with no evidence means your drivel is wrong; the fact your grammar and punctuation suck is just fodder to make fun of. Like Skep said - present evidence or go away.

[Tom Foss]

I would be interested in seeing that "proof". No one (including science) even knows what life is. No one as even been able to explain it...Yet, you say that you have proof?

Oh, for the love of... Okay, we covered this in my Biology class, freshman year of High School, in the first week. To be considered alive, an organism must satisfy the following five conditions: 1. It must have a metabolism; i.e., it must either consume food or produce its own. 2. It must consist of one or more cells. All life forms on the planet have cellular organization. 3. It must have the capacity to reproduce, sexually or asexually. 4. It must have DNA. 5. It must have a way to maintain homeostasis, a stable, constant internal environment. Now, before you go asking dumb questions like "so if you neuter a dog and it can't reproduce, does that mean it's no longer alive," note that this is very general, and that reproduction is probably the least vital of the five categories. After all, if you changed any of the others, the organism would die; removing the reproductive capabilities can still leave the organism functional. But, if an entire population lacks the ability to reproduce, that's a good indication that you may want to check the other conditions before you start calling them "alive."

In any case, no, you're wrong, we can say quite easily what "life" is.

Have you noticed the continuing claims by many on this Blog, that spelling errors, poor grammar, typos etc, make theories WRONG? According to many here, a theory that is expressed in writing and that writing contains errors, then the theory is wrong. So I am going to cause us all to drift off into space....Watch this..

If that weren't a strawman, you'd be right. You'd be accusing us of a non sequitur. However, no one has said "because you make mistakes, you are wrong." Plenty have said "because you make mistakes, you're probably stupid. Also, your theories are wrong, for the following reasons: X, Y, and Z." And there's nothing fallacious about that.

It is the rest of the World that is mad...not him! Any reputable psychiatrist can tell you that such a belief indicates a mental illness.

Are you qualified to make such a diagnosis? Any reputable psychiatrist can tell you that trying to diagnose someone you've never met based solely on some of their writings is unethical, impossible to be reliable, and would get your license revoked.

Incidentally, I imagine that if I asked a reputable psychiatrist what it meant if I believed that the universe would automatically give me anything I wished for, I'd probably be prescribed some very fun medication.

[Jimmy_Blue]

What-The?

I was wondering how you would try avoiding all the questions asked of you this time, now that your conditions for answering them had been met, and here we have it. You've moved to another thread, stuck your fingers in your ears and started chanting 'Lalalalalalalalala'.

Words fail me. Or at least words that I could use here and not have Skeptico understandably upset.

Have you noticed the continuing claims by many on this Blog, that spelling errors, poor grammar, typos etc, make theories WRONG?

Please show where this is stated specifically.

According to many here, a theory that is expressed in writing and that writing contains errors, then the theory is wrong.

Again, please show where this is stated specifically.

zms, if you want a real giggle, read whatever What-The? says.

ZMS:
Most of you guys that say the Law of Attracton doesnt exist are wanting to be right not just want to know the truth. You guys need a life

You score two in the category 'Unoriginal comments that woos make about skeptics that we've already heard and disproved before.'

[Omitis]

To us SKEPTICS:

I remind you of experimental conditions. I remind you of controlled experimental conditions.

There hasn't been a controlled study of law of attraction. Until somebody does a robust, well planned experiment of law of attraction, it is un-scientific to claim that it is false. Where is your scientific proof that it is false?

If you philosophically deduce that it is false, then you are no different from those who philosophically deduce that it is true.

If you don't find it a waste of time, and you haven't already made 'your' mind about this theory. I suggest you act like a real scientist; take the hypothesis, follow the method under 'controlled' experimental conditions and let us know of the results.

I also suggest that if you would like, be active in your experiments and not wait for 'somebody else' to do it for you. A real scientist is active not passive.

Some are scientists; they create real science. Some are consumers; they don't create, they make use of real scientists' creations. Consumers often abuse too.

If you are a real scientist, a real skeptic, then have the guts to do the experiment under 'controlled experimental conditions'. Act like who you believe you are.

If you find proof that the hypothesis doesn't hold. Then you may choose to empty your anger and frustration on people who you perceive inferior to yourself.

[Jimmy_Blue]

Omitis:

Is it unscientific to claim that unicorns don't exist?

Or to put it another way, is it unscientific to claim that the hypothesis that unicorns exist is false?

[Tom Foss]

To us SKEPTICS:

Translation: I am a CONCERN TROLL

I remind you of experimental conditions. I remind you of controlled experimental conditions.

There hasn't been a controlled study of law of attraction. Until somebody does a robust, well planned experiment of law of attraction, it is un-scientific to claim that it is false. Where is your scientific proof that it is false?

I remind you of falsifiability. I remind you of the null hypothesis. I remind you of the very basis of the scientific method: the burden of proof is on those making the positive claim, in this case, the people behind the Law of Attraction. It is up to them to define it and show that it is true, it is not up to us to show the contrary.

If you don't find it a waste of time, and you haven't already made 'your' mind about this theory. I suggest you act like a real scientist; take the hypothesis, follow the method under 'controlled' experimental conditions and let us know of the results.

Test what? The people behind the Law of Attraction have proposed no mechanism by which their law works. They have proposed dozens of outs and equivocations and caveats to explain why it doesn't work the way it's expected to, they have proposed fallaciously that quantum mechanics supports their claims, and they have proposed that it is 100% true without any controlled tests or scientific method. Until they, at the very least, define the law in such a way that it may potentially be falsified, it cannot be tested, and cannot be anything more than pseudoscience.

A real scientist is active not passive.

You have already demonstrated a terrible misunderstanding of the scientific method. What makes you qualified at all to say what a "real scientist" is? I can say with certainty that several of the people who frequent this blog are "real scientists," and every one of them recognizes that "real scientists" do not accept positive claims without positive evidence.

Some are scientists; they create real science. Some are consumers; they don't create, they make use of real scientists' creations. Consumers often abuse too.

What does this even mean? You don't "create" science, you "do" science. And science is a collaborative effort; without 'consumers' to check and review the work of their scientist peers (perhaps you've heard of this process, "fellow skeptic," it's called peer review), the field would not progress, and bad experiments or fallacious conclusions would not be disproven.

If you are a real scientist, a real skeptic, then have the guts to do the experiment under 'controlled experimental conditions'. Act like who you believe you are.

I think we've all performed the "if I wish for something, it will come true" experiment under conditions with as much control as suggested by The Secret. I haven't yet seen a positive conclusion.

But it's not the job of a "real scientist" to entertain and test every possible hypothesis. If I hypothesize that unicorns exist, what controlled experiment can I perform to disprove it? Science assumes the null hypothesis, that 'X does not exist,' until positive evidence can be shown to disprove that hypothesis, whether we're talking about phlogiston or leprechauns or the Law of Attraction.

If you find proof that the hypothesis doesn't hold. Then you may choose to empty your anger and frustration on people who you perceive inferior to yourself.

There's no matter of superiority/inferiority here. But until the people making the claim that the Law of Attraction exists and is scientifically valid can produce some evidence to back up their claim, I'm afraid I'll have to stick to the usual skeptical scientific method, and the wealth of evidence, experimental and anecdotal, which shows that there is an external, objective universe which operates according to natural laws that couldn't care less what I think or wish for.

[What-The?]

"There's no matter of superiority/inferiority here."

I beg to differ with you. One does not need to look far around this site to see that any person that poses a valid, reasonable question or comment is instantly labelled an "idiot", "moron", "f-ing this" or "f-ing that". The webmaster even states that he thinks the World is "mad". This does not validate your stance that everything is wrong until "proven" right. All it does is lower you to the gutter.

Try this experiment to disprove the Law of Attraction:- Call the police and tell them that your car has been stolen and you need help. Then tell the police that you think the World is Mad and that any person that does not abide by your thinking paterns is an Idiot. Ask them to send an Officer that is not a Moron. Ask them to ensure the Officer is not a F-ing Lunatic. Then simply monitor the results...Which, of course will most likely be, your car will remain stolen.

[Tom Foss]

I beg to differ with you. One does not need to look far around this site to see that any person that poses a valid, reasonable question or comment is instantly labelled an "idiot", "moron", "f-ing this" or "f-ing that".

I would beg to differ. People who pose reasonable questions are given reasonable answers. People who continue to pose the same inane questions without regard to the answers they are given, the proof they are shown, or the very basic logic on which human knowledge is founded, are rightly criticized for such behavior. No one gets called an "idiot" here until they act like one.

The webmaster even states that he thinks the World is "mad".

No, he doesn't. Here's the quote: "It sometimes seems like the whole world has gone mad." Note the words "sometimes" and "seems." He continues, justifying this attention-getting claim, talking about all the irrational things that people believe and promote without ever actually critically considering them. I wonder, could "mad" be a synonym for "irrational"? Why, I do believe it could.

Wishing that Skeptico said "the whole world is mad and I'm the only sane one" doesn't make it so. Recognizing the prevalence of irrational beliefs in our society, and the fervor and protectiveness exhibited by the believers regarding those beliefs, is not the same as solipsistically claiming that everyone else is insane.

This does not validate your stance that everything is wrong until "proven" right.

No, reality validates that stance. All logic and human knowledge validate that stance.

Try this experiment to disprove the Law of Attraction:- Call the police and tell them that your car has been stolen and you need help. Then tell the police that you think the World is Mad and that any person that does not abide by your thinking paterns is an Idiot. Ask them to send an Officer that is not a Moron. Ask them to ensure the Officer is not a F-ing Lunatic. Then simply monitor the results...Which, of course will most likely be, your car will remain stolen.

Or, do this experiment to disprove the Law of Attraction: 1. Engage in an online debate 2. Make claims, but refuse to present any supporting evidence for those claims. 3. Continue to repeat those claims. 4. When evidence is requested, make shit up. 5. When you're called on your bluff, say you're ignoring everyone until they answer some question. 6. Once that question is answered, continue to ignore everyone. If necessary, switch threads. 7. Construct a laughable strawman of your opponent. 8. Wish really hard that this strawman actually represented your opponent's tactics and viewpoints.

Then, simply monitor the results. Which, of course will most likely be that your strawman will remain just that, a laughable caricature of what you wish your opponent was acting like, so you wouldn't have to own up to the fact that you have no evidence to support any of your claims, except what you made up out of whole cloth.

[dikkii]

It's taken me nearly two days to read all the comments here.

Can't we just stop feeding the trolls?

We've established to the point of no return that What-The? is doing this, and I'll quote Tom here:

Engage in an online debate 2. Make claims, but refuse to present any supporting evidence for those claims. 3. Continue to repeat those claims. 4. When evidence is requested, make shit up. 5. When you're called on your bluff, say you're ignoring everyone until they answer some question. 6. Once that question is answered, continue to ignore everyone. If necessary, switch threads. 7. Construct a laughable strawman of your opponent. 8. Wish really hard that this strawman actually represented your opponent's tactics and viewpoints.

Seriously, can't this idiot just be ignored?

[Omitis]

Tom. At least unlike some people you don't rant. You have behavioral control over what you write and don't let anger and other emotions get into your posts. This might sound like I'm a psychologist. I also do a lot of research on the field of para-psychology and study why people believe what they believe. How some make money etc. I'm also a C# programmer.

I watched this movie six month ago. I didn't believe it, I still don't, but I did further research on law of attraction.

The movie has not made clear the distinction between two well known mystically believed laws: The law of Attraction and The law of Manifestation. The movie for some reason has assumed that attraction and manifestation are the same.

Having the universe treated like a catalog makes use of the law of manifestation, which includes holding the image, visualizing and feeling (as they say). I have not been able to replicate this.

But I have been able to replicate law of attraction. ONLY when it comes to emotions but not THINGS.

There is extensive research on Depression and Anxiety. They all say the same thing, it is the affirmation of the negative thoughts that creates more depression and anxiety. If you study people with major depression disorders and their thought form, you will quickly see the negative thought pattern among these individuals. The latest research shows that Rumination (the art of self-blame and negative self image) mediates depression.

On the other hand research shows positive attitude and thinking is correlated with self-esteem, positive outlook to life and happiness. Furthermore in legendary works of Carol Dweck on children's academic abilities, children who perform better at school have positive thinking patterns. And doing better at school is correlated with higher SES and a happier life. As you have probably guessed positive thinking is correlated with success.

It is known that people who habituate positive thinking feel better in life and people who habituate negative thinking/rumination feel worse. If you are interested I can spend some time and put a list of these studies together for you.

The law of attraction may not be a universal paranormal law. But it is definitely - I wouldn't say a law - but a phenomena in human mind. You think more of what you think of often. For example, the more you think about football, the more you want to talk about it, you research about it, you read about it. When you think football, your mind thinks football and it attracts football (as thought).

A depressed person becomes what he/she thinks about most; self-blame, bad self-image. They repeat it so much in their mind that they really believe they are a vegetable. And yes it is the thoughts that create depression with genetic dispositions playing a small roll; making the mind vulnerable to this type of thinking.

I'd also like to mention that the fundamental of cognitive behavioral therapy is based on changing negative thought patterns to positive logical thought patters. CBT also tells us that the victims are responsible for how they feel; the external world playing a small roll. For example if somebody punches you in the face, you have two choices: you become emotionally vulnerable (upset, scared, angry) or you turn around and punch the person back and feel good and proud (not a good example probably).

So when it comes to the law of manifestation I am on the same side as you. But with the phenomena of attraction I stand on their side. Research in psychology provides extensive support for the power of positive thinking and destructive power of negative thinking.

I hope I managed to explain the phenomena of attraction in human mind well. I hope you guys appreciate this.

[Omitis]

Tom. I should have read more of your posts. Sorry for making a false unscientific unexperimented statement:

"You have behavioral control over what you write and don't let anger and other emotions get into your posts."

[HCN]

What-The? advised us to " Call the police and tell them that your car has been stolen and you need help. "

Please explain in detail how this will prove the "Law of Attraction". Especially since if one's car has NOT been stolen the caller would be committing a crime.

I have not called you any names. I will, however, point out that sometimes a person's use of the English language will show a lack of understanding of the language. The reasons for misusing the language could be a learning disability, English being a second language, a lack of education in the use of English, or for lack of using it often. For the latter it could be someone who does not read for pleasure on a regular basis.

Many of us "skeptics" are big on reading just for fun. Not only does it help to remind us of how to use English, it helps us to understand and evaluate information.

Also helps to have a basic understanding of science. One does not have to have a graduate degree in physics, but just a good grounding. A couple of good basic books to start would be _Bad Astronomy_ by Phil Plait, and several of the non-fiction books by Isaac Asimov (I have a book on physics by him, it is very interesting and easy to read).

Another thing you might do is to become familiar with your local community college. They often have some good adult education classes, plus real college science classes where the only requirement is to pass a basic math and English test (my 16 year old son took biology last summer at a community college, he enjoyed it immensely and was impressed with the quality of the teacher compared to his high school science class).

I personally do not think that those who wish to believe in a "Law of Attraction" are lacking in intelligence, but are more likely lacking in education. That is something that can be remedied. All it takes is a will to learn, doing some work, and come cash for tuition. BUT getting more education may actually provide a benefit in improving one's employment options.

Because in the end it is not the wishing, but the doing that will accomplish more.

[What-The?]

"What-The? advised us to"

No. I did not. I did not give any "advice". Nor have I made any "claims" although many here keep asking me to "prove" my "claims".

I respect your comments. I believe that education has little or no relevence to knowledge and itelligence. To support this, I name but just a few examples...(exusing spelling)

Einstien - Little education
Ford - Almost no education
Edison - Little education
Jesus - No education

That is just a few.

[Tom Foss]

Tom. At least unlike some people you don't rant.

You've not been here very long.

I also do a lot of research on the field of para-psychology and study why people believe what they believe.

I'm afraid that's not winning you any points here. I don't think I'd be alone in saying that most parapsychological studies turn out to be bunk, due either to poor controls or poor protocol.

But I have been able to replicate law of attraction. ONLY when it comes to emotions but not THINGS.

So, if I understand you correctly, you're saying that someone who is depressed or otherwise negative will "attract" more negative emotions? I believe that's what we'd call a "no-brainer." It's not revolutionary to say that your mindset colors the way you perceive the world. There's nothing new in saying "someone who is pessimistic/depressed/having a bad day will interpret events in a negative way, and will tend to perpetuate their mood." We call it "getting up on the wrong side of the bed."

As you have probably guessed positive thinking is correlated with success.

Note here, though, that there's no clear causal link. I'm sure lots of people are successful because they have a positive attitude (a quick glance at Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs would seem to confirm that--people who have high self-esteem perform better than those who don't), but I'm sure there are quite a lot of people who are positive because they're successful. Wouldn't you be?

The law of attraction may not be a universal paranormal law. But it is definitely - I wouldn't say a law - but a phenomena in human mind. You think more of what you think of often. For example, the more you think about football, the more you want to talk about it, you research about it, you read about it. When you think football, your mind thinks football and it attracts football (as thought).

Except that's not the "Law of Attraction" as promoted by the Secret. That's "having a one-track mind." Of course we tend to gravitate to the things we enjoy. Of course we tend to interpret the world in terms of the things we know and enjoy. When I see the number 42, I immediately chuckle and think about the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy. Lately, I've been reading the DC Comics series "52," and so I tend to notice the number 52 more than I would have before. It doesn't mean I'm "attracting" more 52s to me, it means that I have a reason to remember the ones I do encounter. The same goes with anything else. If you're big into football, you're going to notice football things more than someone who isn't. You'll naturally expose yourself to more football-related things, but you'll also have a reason to commit to memory the football things you just happen to encounter in everyday life. And when you think analogically, you're going to think in terms of football. I wouldn't call that "attraction," I'd call that "interpretation," and it's less a law and more of a fact of psychology.

CBT also tells us that the victims are responsible for how they feel; the external world playing a small roll. For example if somebody punches you in the face, you have two choices: you become emotionally vulnerable (upset, scared, angry) or you turn around and punch the person back and feel good and proud (not a good example probably).

I'm not sure how much I agree with this. While all people are different, most people will react to victimization in similar ways.

But with the phenomena of attraction I stand on their side. Research in psychology provides extensive support for the power of positive thinking and destructive power of negative thinking.

No one will deny that your attitude has major effects on how you personally perceive the world. That's a fact of life. But this is not at all the claim of the LoA folks, who equivocate that personal perception with external reality.