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September 26, 2007

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Ok, for some reason I hate to use preview, but I will give it a try. I'm used to being able to go back in time, so to say, and edit what I have already posted.

One time, years ago on my birthday, I was sitting on the beach in Hawaii and thinking that I wanted to see a message in the clouds. I swear to, well whatever, that there was literally an f cloud an a cloud an i cloud a t cloud and an h could. Admittedly I had had some wine and a little pot, but there it was. I know you're thinking it was a coincidence, which is was, but I sure have never seen anything like it since, or before. My boyfriend at the time thought it meant we were supposed to be together forever. I think faith is different than that. For me faith is believing that no matter what you are doing and wherever you are, you are doing just what you are supposed to be doing. I don't think that this means that it is all good. I think that I am here for the experience, or, horrors, for my soul's evolution.

The studies in the BioInitiative are all peer reviewed studies.

Here a couple of more recent studies:

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=071207145613.hnkq6bin&show_article=1

http://www.indianexpress.com/story/243721.html


I think this Electromagnetic Field Sensitivity study is more telling

http://www.aehf.com/articles/em_sensitive.html

People have sensitivities to different frequencies. This makes sense to me as we are unique in our body chemistry. Today's pharmaceutical based allopathic medical field treats everyone as if we all identical. All I have to do is look at my sister after she has been around Poison Oak to know that is not the case. She has a terrible reaction. I only get a few small bumps if I run into the plant.

I thought what this one reporter said made sense. He said if 70% of scientists' studies showed there was a shark in your swimming pool and 30% showed there was not, would you jump in?

The majority of studies on the non-thermal effects of non-ionizing radiation show evidence of biological effects. Many of these effects are therapeutic as the BioInitiative documents.

I don't know anything about meters. I don't have one and haven't bothered to learn anything about them, but my friend has one because she feels sensitive to emr so I am fairly confident that her house does not have any cordless phones or other items what would be giving off high levels of emr. I wish I could afford a meter though. Today I was helping a friend move and I got the symptoms I associate with exposure to emr. I'll have to see if I can get my friend to check out the levels.

So, googling "Does acupuncture work" gives me this:

http://healing.about.com/od/acupuncture/ss/whatisacpunctre_4.htm

According to the NIH Consensus Statement on Acupuncture, there have been many studies on acupuncture's potential usefulness, but results have been mixed because of complexities with study design and size, as well as difficulties with choosing and using placebos or sham acupuncture. However, promising results have emerged, showing efficacy of acupuncture, for example, in adult postoperative and chemotherapy nausea and vomiting and in postoperative dental pain. There are other situations--such as addiction, stroke rehabilitation, headache, menstrual cramps, tennis elbow, fibromyalgia, myofascial pain, osteoarthritis, low-back pain, carpal tunnel syndrome, and asthma--in which acupuncture may be useful as an adjunct treatment or an acceptable alternative or be included in a comprehensive management program.

An NCCAM-funded study recently showed that acupuncture provides pain relief, improves function for people with osteoarthritis of the knee, and serves as an effective complement to standard care. Further research is likely to uncover additional areas where acupuncture interventions will be useful.


I haven't had a chance to check out your link Jimmy Blue, but thanks for sharing it. It sounds interesting.

Even with preview I can't get things right. Ok, it was your link Skeptico, not Jimmy Blues.

I forgot something. It seems to me that to say that humans have been exposed to emr forever and therefore it cannot harm us is a false argument. We have been exposed to many things that at a certain level do not cause harm, but they will cause harm at higher levels. In fact I would like to know one thing that does not have a toxic level of exposure.

And really, my body is approximately 60% water, but that does not mean that I cannot drown.

Ok, for some reason I hate to use preview, but I will give it a try. I'm used to being able to go back in time, so to say, and edit what I have already posted.
I often type my long posts in notepad, then copy them over. It's a good way to be able to look over and revise the post before it's permanent. Incidentally, I've never seen a blog host with the option to edit comments (though Blogger allows you to delete your own). That's usually a message board thing.

One time, years ago on my birthday, I was sitting on the beach in Hawaii and thinking that I wanted to see a message in the clouds. I swear to, well whatever, that there was literally an f cloud an a cloud an i cloud a t cloud and an h could. Admittedly I had had some wine and a little pot, but there it was.

This is a joke, right? You can't possibly be serious. "There I was, under the influence of two different mind-altering chemicals, when I willingly opened myself to suggestion and experienced an amazing instance of pareidolia, which told me I should believe in things without evidence! And you should take my word on it, despite my lack of evidence, because my account of this clearly significant event is so obviously unimpeachable!"

I know you're thinking it was a coincidence, which is was, but I sure have never seen anything like it since, or before.
Maybe you just haven't found the right drug/alcohol combination yet.
My boyfriend at the time thought it meant we were supposed to be together forever. I think faith is different than that.
In other words, faith is open to subjective interpretation. You'll forgive me if I fund that utterly useless in any real sense.
For me faith is believing that no matter what you are doing and wherever you are, you are doing just what you are supposed to be doing.
I'm sure that's comforting to all the rapists, murderers, and Republicans out there. Ah, determinism.
I don't think that this means that it is all good. I think that I am here for the experience, or, horrors, for my soul's evolution.
And what, exactly, is the soul? How does it evolve? What reason do you have to believe any of this?
The studies in the BioInitiative are all peer reviewed studies.
What journals are they published in?
People have sensitivities to different frequencies. This makes sense to me as we are unique in our body chemistry.
You keep saying things "make sense" to you. You've demonstrated so far that you lack a basic understanding of biology, physics, science, and critical thinking. Do you think that perhaps these things only "make sense" to you because you lack the knowledge that would show you how senseless they are?

For instance, what do you mean that "we" are unique in our body chemistry? Are you saying "we" as individuals, or "we" as a species, or what? What do you mean by "unique"? We're all made of the same stuff, the same hydrocarbon macromolecules, and so on. We all operate according to the same rules of biochemistry. And none of that explains why we'd feel some kind of adverse effects from radio waves.

Today's pharmaceutical based allopathic medical field treats everyone as if we all identical.
Bullshit. Absolute and utter bullshit. Evidence-based medicine treats patients as if they're all mostly the same because they are. We're all built according to the same templates, with the same organs performing the same functions in the same places, and susceptible in the same ways to the same illness-causing agents. There are individual differences, and (shock of shocks!) medicine recognizes and accounts for them. It starts with large-scale tests, which determine how the majority of people will react to specific treatments, as well as the reactions that statistically significant minorities might also have. It continues on to diagnosis, performed individually on individuals by individual doctors based on experience with many other individuals in the past. Individuals are them given treatment, with the knowledge that most will react a certain way, but with the recognition that they may react differently.

In other words, evidence-based medicine works from the evidence: the evidence that we're mostly the same, the evidence that tells us how different treatments will affect different individuals, the evidence of individual ailments, and the evidence of an individual's reaction to specific treatments.

Your alternative medicine, however, starts from touchy-feely crap about how everyone needs an individual treatment, slops on some vitriol toward modern medicine, and performs made-up treatments without any evidence as to their effectiveness (or their effects for that matter), and without any oversight or guidelines, because that would go against having an "individual" treatment.

Tell me this, Angela: if we're all so different that we need to be treated with more individuality than what's afforded by "allopathic" medicine, then how do acupuncturists know what to do when you come in? Since each of us is unique, how do they know that poking the same spot on two different people will have anything near the same effect? How do they know that a healing spot on one person isn't the insta-death spot on the next?

Furthermore, how do you know that you and your friend are both sensitive to electromagnetic fields? Our body chemistry is unique, after all--it could be that she's sensitive to RF, and you're actually sensitive to carbon dioxide, or cosmic rays, or maybe you're allergic to your soul! You might both have similar symptoms, but they could be caused by totally different things! After all, we are all unique in our chemistry and such.

All I have to do is look at my sister after she has been around Poison Oak to know that is not the case. She has a terrible reaction. I only get a few small bumps if I run into the plant.

Yes, some people have different reactions to things. Where in the world do you get that modern medicine doesn't recognize this? When my brother gets a cold, the doctors give him Amoxicillin (or something similar). When I get a cold, they give me Erithromycin, because I'm allergic to medicines related to penicillin. Strangely enough, not only do my allopathic doctors recognize this difference between individuals (in the same family, no less), but they're the ones who diagnosed it!

I thought what this one reporter said made sense. He said if 70% of scientists' studies showed there was a shark in your swimming pool and 30% showed there was not, would you jump in?
Oh, I know this one: if someone levies an argument by bad analogy at you, and someone else points out that the evidence contradicts their claims regardless of the analogies, would you believe the person with the evidence-free analogy?
The majority of studies on the non-thermal effects of non-ionizing radiation show evidence of biological effects.
Yes, and as the World Health Organization says:
'Biological effect' does not equal 'health hazard'.
Incidentally, they also say this:
There is little scientific evidence to support the idea of electromagnetic hypersensitivity. Recent Scandinavian studies found that individuals do not show consistent reactions under properly controlled conditions of electromagnetic field exposure. Nor is there any accepted biological mechanism to explain hypersensitivity.
Whoops, I guess you must be really unique, Angela.
Many of these effects are therapeutic as the BioInitiative documents.
Could you, perhaps, explain what these effects are, and by what mechanism they operate?
I don't know anything about meters. I don't have one and haven't bothered to learn anything about them,
I have a feeling this is going to be the refrain of the conversation.
but my friend has one because she feels sensitive to emr so I am fairly confident that her house does not have any cordless phones or other items what would be giving off high levels of emr.
She was getting the acupuncture treatment at her house?

But, let's assume she's gotten rid of everything that might cause a significant electromagnetic field. That means your friend doesn't own a television, owns no radios, does not have electricity or any electrical devices at all, certainly doesn't have a cellular phone, and has constructed a Faraday cage around her house. A significant amount of lead shielding would almost certainly be necessary between her and the rest of the outside world in order to block radio waves and other electromagnetic transmissions from the surrounding area. And none of that is counting those terrible electromagnetic field producers, the sun and Earth.

And what does that RF meter run on? Better chuck that too, just to be safe.

Today I was helping a friend move and I got the symptoms I associate with exposure to emr.
What are those symptoms, actually? Have you ever seen, you know, a doctor to find out if they might be caused by something other than magical, unexplained interactions between your body and electromagnetic fields?
So, googling "Does acupuncture work" gives me this:
Yes, we've already discussed the NIH and related studies in this thread. None of the well-controlled studies show any improvement over placebo for acupuncture. But, you know, relax the controls a little, remove some of the blinding, shrink the study sample, and you can get some amazing effects of acupuncture. They just disappear when you look more closely.
It seems to me that to say that humans have been exposed to emr forever and therefore it cannot harm us is a false argument.
You're right. Who made that argument?
We have been exposed to many things that at a certain level do not cause harm, but they will cause harm at higher levels.
Absolutely. And we've been, since life began on this planet, exposed to far higher levels of electromagnetic fields than anything produced by humans, via the natural fields of the Earth and the sun (and the other nearby celestial bodies). You're right in saying that we're not necessarily immune to EMF just because we've always been exposed to them, but you fail to recognize that the amount of EMF you're exposed to today and the amount you might have been exposed to a thousand years ago, differ by very little. It's like saying "fish are fine in the ocean, but if you dump another bucket of saltwater in, they might have adverse reactions!"

But you're right, people can have terrible reactions to excessive exposure to EMF. If you're exposed, for instance, to frequent or prolonged X-Rays, you might develop cancer. If you're exposed to high-energy microwaves, you might fry your insides. If you're exposed to high-level current, you might fry your outsides. But being exposed to the radiation output from your television screen is not high-level in any of the ways that might cause that sort of damage. You'd have to sit in front of the TV for lifetimes to get anywhere near the exposure levels necessary to be toxic.

To put this in simpler terms: you're worried about getting a sunburn from a 60-watt bulb.

In fact I would like to know one thing that does not have a toxic level of exposure.
'Tain't nothin'. And no one said there was. What we're trying to tell you is that the toxic exposure levels of EMF are well-known, and are well above what you seem to think they are.
And really, my body is approximately 60% water, but that does not mean that I cannot drown.
And that's at the low end (humans being about 55-78% water, depending on size). And the air you breathe is about 78% Nitrogen. So, if someone opened up a Nitrogen tank near you outside, increasing the amount of nitrogen in the air locally by a few liters, would you worry about suffocating to death? Because that's pretty much exactly what you're doing here with EMF.

So, Skeptico...any chance of loosening the spam-filter tolerance? I really don't know why my posts keep getting held, at this point. This one didn't even have that many links.

Angela:

So no answers but more of the same? I think we can probably all see how this is going to go.

One time, years ago on my birthday, I was sitting on the beach in Hawaii and thinking that I wanted to see a message in the clouds. I swear to, well whatever, that there was literally an f cloud an a cloud an i cloud a t cloud and an h could. Admittedly I had had some wine and a little pot, but there it was.

I mean, seriously. Are you really that ridiculous or was this just a rubbish joke? Your argument is that we should take things on faith because you once got stoned and drunk and experienced pareidolia, and that we should take your word for it on faith.

I know you're thinking it was a coincidence, which is was, but I sure have never seen anything like it since, or before.

No. Coincidence is:

1. a striking occurrence of two or more events at one time apparently by mere chance.

What you had was an hallucination:

1. a sensory experience of something that does not exist outside the mind, caused by various physical and mental disorders, or by reaction to certain toxic substances, and usually manifested as visual or auditory images.

My boyfriend at the time thought it meant we were supposed to be together forever.

Did he take that on faith? And are you still together?

For me faith is believing that no matter what you are doing and wherever you are, you are doing just what you are supposed to be doing.

Does everyone else think this sounds like the Secretard Mara?

You have a pretty callous attitude to famine victims; survivors of genocide; gang raped women in the Congo; child soldiers anywhere in Africa, don't you? They are supposed to be there. So why bother helping anybody since they are supposed to be suffering, right?

I think that I am here for the experience, or, horrors, for my soul's evolution.

Yep, just like a Secretard. You know, I am getting tired of woos claiming skeptics are heartless when there's a bunch out there who think child victims of sexual abuse are doing what they are supposed to be doing.

The studies in the BioInitiative are all peer reviewed studies.

As I told Bestie, peer review does not mean having your friends read your work, it means having people not involved with the work review it. I didn't see on thier website where it says that so could you cite your evidence for this. I'm sure some of it might be, but I am not going to take it on faith. I'm not stoned.

This makes sense to me as we are unique in our body chemistry.

In what way does it make sense? How does body chemisty affect tolerance of different frequencies? Different frequencies of what?

Today's pharmaceutical based allopathic medical field treats everyone as if we all identical.

Really, you can be diagnosed with prostate cancer too? And I can have ovarian cancer?
Holy crap, I've not had a period for 31 years, I must be pregnant. I should see speak to my gynaecologist straight away. Or should that be my obstetrician?

Do you even think before you type?

I thought what this one reporter said made sense.

That's not exactly a personal recommendation that is selling anything to me.

I don't know anything about meters.

And I don't know anything about designing lasers, which is why I don't talk about it like I do.

However, promising results have emerged, showing efficacy of acupuncture, for example, in adult postoperative and chemotherapy nausea and vomiting and in postoperative dental pain.

Check the links I posted for Cupo above. Why do you think acupuncture doesn't work for children as an antiemetic? I can think of three obvious reasons.

An NCCAM-funded study recently showed that acupuncture provides pain relief, improves function for people with osteoarthritis of the knee, and serves as an effective complement to standard care. Further research is likely to uncover additional areas where acupuncture interventions will be useful.

How is that when a pharmacuetical industry funds research the woos think it is biased or a conspiracy or a fix, or all three. But when an institution devoted to CAM funds one, it is insightful, valid and well run?

And really, my body is approximately 60% water, but that does not mean that I cannot drown.

That's great, but what does it have to do with the matter in hand?

There are over 2,000 studies in the BioInitiative. How can you say the scientists involved wrote the report and reviewed themselves?

And no that was not a hallucination with the clouds. I was not that stoned or drunk. I was sexually assaulted by a stranger. It is not anything I wish on any person. I do not think we should do away with laws or stop arresting and convicting people who harm others. All the same I felt compassion for the man who attacked me. I felt this because I believe that this person's life circumstances led him to behave in this way. Yes he made choices, but we don't all grow up in loving families and some people have never learned how to properly relate. I find it sad.

So, you asked for my story. Here it is:

Last year I started experiencing a full body muscle ache. I have spent the last ten years working as a gardener and farmer and am used to getting muscle aches, however these particular aches struck me as odd as they involved my entire body. Prior to this my experience had been that when I had a muscle ache it was associated with a particular part of my body and I was able to attribute it to some action I had undertaken. This full body ache came and went from March 2006 through March 2007. In addition I repeatedly had cysts on various locations, insomnia and could not concentrate enough to read a book.

In March 2007 I moved and quit working as a gardener. The muscle aches and other symptoms did not occur during the following six weeks after my move, however after this period the full body muscle ache reoccurred. At this time I thought there was something definitely wrong, as I was not performing any physical labor, which could have contributed to muscle aches.

On April 11, 2007 I started taking a training at a site that had two cell tower masts/antennas on the property. I was at the training two days a week on Wednesdays from 5:30pm to 8:30pm and Saturdays from 10am to 5pm. I knew the cell antennas were there as people who were organizing against the installation of the second tower had approached me prior to its installation. I did not join the fight against the installation, as I did not believe the emissions could cause me harm and the same was true for my agreeing to attend the training on this property. In addition to the muscle pain I started experiencing what I will describe as creaky joints. This is not something I had ever experienced before.

On the sixth day of the training, Saturday, April 28th, I knew something was seriously wrong with me. I realized that I was unable to answer any questions from the instructor. I felt I was comprehending the lecture, but I had absolutely no recall. Then we did an exercise to break the tension from the lecture. The first exercise was to line up by height. I was completely disoriented. I am only 5'2" and have never hesitated to find my way to the short end of a line, however I was too disoriented to place myself.

Following this day I literally did not sleep for 96 hours. I lay awake all night each night. I quickly started doing research into cell tower emissions and found that the symptoms I was experiencing were known as common symptoms to exposure to electromagnetic radiation.

A couple of other things occurred which may have contributed to my severe reaction. One was that I donated blood on the Friday before that sixth class. I later found out that there were cell tower antennas on the roof of the building where I donated blood. I was at the donation center for approximately three hours that day. And on the day that my symptoms became severe I went for a walk at lunchtime on a hill above the property with the cell tower antennas. I am left wondering if perhaps I wandered into a hot spot from the cell tower.

Additionally I found that the location of the training was approximately 100' from one of the cell tower antennas and that as the training was on the second floor of the building this location was estimated to be the spot with the highest level of emissions.

I now recall that I had a wireless router in my bedroom from August 2005 through March 2007 which meant that my earlier symptoms had developed about six months after the installation of the router. When I moved in March 2007 my local Internet company was undergoing technical difficulties and it took them a month before they were able to enable my wireless router and that is the period that I did not experience any symptoms.

Following my research into the damage caused by electro magnetic radiation I immediately started taking nutritional supplements, changed my diet and exercised as much as I could. I do not have health insurance or the income to go to doctors so I did not seek professional help or documentation. I started taking an anti inflammatory supplement called xyflamend for the whole body muscle aches; A capsule containing flax, borage and fish oils for the potential damage to my myelin. I was already using natural herbal teas and tinctures containing valerian and other herbs to promote sleep, but found I had to greatly increase my dosage. In addition I added tryptophan rich foods, which help to regulate sleep. I was already taking a ginkgo biloba supplement, a mineral and multi vitamin supplement and a bilberry supplement. I added asparagus to my diet for the sod (superoxide dismutase) and raw sprouted wheat for the glutamine. Additionally I disabled the wireless option on my router.

On the fifth night after my severe reaction I was able to sleep at night and my muscle pain receded. My brain capacity felt somewhat recovered. It took a month before I felt completely recovered.

I now feel that I can tell when I am being exposed to the emissions from wireless devices. My main symptom is the muscle pain. I also experience a heaviness in my eyes and head.

One was that I donated blood on the Friday before that sixth class.

Let's see symptoms of anemia... hmmm let me look at quackdoctor.com... not there.. hmmm, dictionary?

Most commonly, people with anemia report a feeling of weakness or fatigue in general or during exercise, general malaise and sometimes poor concentration.
My bold.

Hmmm... But you attribute it to cellphone towers. I lived in Los Angeles, City of Cell Towers, Smog, Crime, and smut. And you know what, i never got cancer, had breathing problems (except around noxious chemicals like chlorine), never got a crime committed against my person or property, and never saw smut anywhere. Must be the tinfoil hat i wear all the time that protects me from malaise.

As far as your muscle aches, it could be a multitude of problems. Potassium and other essential salt deficiencies, B12 deficiencies, sleep disturbances, etc. And the flax and fish oil stuff is not for whatever you said it was for, it's a way to reduce cholesterol (for one) and other such nastiness in your bloodstream (and other things, i'll concede, but it's good for that... blood and immune system health). Ginko biloba is a memory aid, and has nothing to do with muscle cramps. as far as the other stuff you mentioned, none of it is anti inflammatory (which it sounds like you'd want). You probably had a lymphatic issue from the sudden STOP in physical activity (which would cause muscle pain due to lactic acid buildups); that's a seperate pain from whatever you were experiencing before (as in the treatment).

The funny thing is, rather than trying anti-inflammatory medication, ice, heat, massage, or anything like that, you assumed it was cellphone towers. And your wireless router.

For the record, i am not a doctor, and this message isn't intended to diagnose, prognose, or treat any symptom or disease. This is just what i know of basic nutrition and body pain care.

Don't look for causes where there are none. Why not just believe that unicorns trample you at night when you're asleep for all the good CELLPHONERADIATIONFEAR is gunna do you. seriously.

Oh and on another note, i moved from los angeles to a really isolated town in the deep south, Louisiana. I've been more sickly, ill, lethargic since i've moved here than i ever have been in my life. I personally blame the crap weather - it's rarely nice enough to do stuff outside, so i stay indoors with either the A/C or the Heater on full bore. Also, the quality of food out here is lacking. All of these have led me to my feeling like crap about 75% of the time.

No cellphone towers, power plants, wireless routers, or any of that crap near me. I live in what's essentially a forest. And every electronic device i own here, i've had elsewhere (washington, Los Angeles, Orange county, etc).

It's not god punishing me any more than it is the chi in my body being blocked. It's food, weather, and temperament. get it? that's how a rational mind thinks.

Going to post this as two posts because the spam filter doesn't like it, sorry.

Angela:

How can you say the scientists involved wrote the report and reviewed themselves?

How can you say they didn't? I asked you to provide evidence, and you haven't.

And no that was not a hallucination with the clouds. I was not that stoned or drunk.

And how drunk and stoned do you have to be, exactly? Since you know that you weren't stoned enough you must know what the limit is, right?

I was sexually assaulted by a stranger.

Sorry to here that. Incidentally, that is also what the Secretard Mora (not Mara as I said before) said. You both suffered terribly, and you both now hold to a belief that there must be a higher reason for it. Something tells me that is not coincidence.

I do not think we should do away with laws or stop arresting and convicting people who harm others.

Why not? They are only doing what they are supposed to be doing, and the victims are supposed to be suffering. Why punish someone for doing what they were supposed to do?

So, you asked for my story.

We did?

Last year I started experiencing a full body muscle ache. I have spent the last ten years working as a gardener and farmer and am used to getting muscle aches, however these particular aches struck me as odd as they involved my entire body.

Yes, isn't it odd that someone involved in physical outdoor work would start to ache all over as they got older. How strange and unique.

Prior to this my experience had been that when I had a muscle ache it was associated with a particular part of my body and I was able to attribute it to some action I had undertaken.

Yes, because nothing ever changes as we get older, our bodies stay exactly the same.

In addition I repeatedly had cysts on various locations, insomnia and could not concentrate enough to read a book.

You did phyiscal work and got cysts? How unusual. And you knew they were cysts even though you couldn't/didn't go to recieve medical treatment? You did physical work and couldn't concentrate on books. I can't imagine anything that could cause that. Especially to someone who works hard and has a known interest in alcohol and recreational drugs. Insomnia? I can't imagine anything that disturbs sleep patterns, can you?

Make that three parts!

Part II:

At this time I thought there was something definitely wrong, as I was not performing any physical labor, which could have contributed to muscle aches.

I wonder. Could there be anything that might account for that?

In addition to the muscle pain I started experiencing what I will describe as creaky joints.

Creaky joints hey? Could there possibly be anything that could account for that?

This is not something I had ever experienced before.

Gosh. It's almost like it might be something you haven't been before.

I realized that I was unable to answer any questions from the instructor.

Well I certainly can't think of anything I may have already not thought of that could cause confusion. Certainly not fatigue, drug or alcohol use, or age.

I lay awake all night each night.

Insomnia hey? Well I wonder if there could be any causes of this that you might have been exposed to? Surely not.

I quickly started doing research into cell tower emissions and found that the symptoms I was experiencing were known as common symptoms to exposure to electromagnetic radiation.

So, rather than look into the causes of disorientation, insomnia, muscle aches, you went staight to "It's the electro-magnetic spectrum. Let's find some evidence to prove this."

A couple of other things occurred which may have contributed to my severe reaction. One was that I donated blood on the Friday before that sixth class.

Gee, d'ya think?

I later found out that there were cell tower antennas on the roof of the building where I donated blood. I was at the donation center for approximately three hours that day. And on the day that my symptoms became severe I went for a walk at lunchtime on a hill above the property with the cell tower antennas. I am left wondering if perhaps I wandered into a hot spot from the cell tower.

Oh of course, it couldn't be the combination of stress, aging, fatigue and blood loss. It must have been antennas and the electro-magnetic spectrum. You are a poster child for uncritical thinking.

Part III:

Additionally I found that the location of the training was approximately 100' from one of the cell tower antennas and that as the training was on the second floor of the building this location was estimated to be the spot with the highest level of emissions.

Estimated by whom? Was this confirmed with accurate measurements? Or did you just guess and confirm it yourself?

I now recall that I had a wireless router in my bedroom from August 2005 through March 2007 which meant that my earlier symptoms had developed about six months after the installation of the router.

And here I have one in my kitchen and have suffered no ill effects at all, even though when I am in the house I am never more than 20 feet away all day long.

Following my research into the damage caused by electro magnetic radiation I immediately started taking nutritional supplements, changed my diet and exercised as much as I could.

I see. And how do nutritional supplements, exercise and a good diet counteract the effects of damage from electro magnetic radiation? I assure you that if I can get your answer published, I will share the Nobel prize with you. More importantly, how do they stop you from being exposed to electro-magnetic radiation?

A capsule containing flax, borage and fish oils for the potential damage to my myelin.

It's funny, but your symptoms could actually be symptoms of Demyelination. If anyone wants evidence of how everything in woo land is connected demyelination can be related to the nerve damage associated with pernicious anaemia. And some forms of anaemia can be caused by vitamin B-12 deficiency. Which is the cause of autism, as we all know. Which is caused by Thimerasol. Proof positive I think you would all agree.

Additionally I disabled the wireless option on my router.

Well how will we ever know what it was that cured you then?

My brain capacity felt somewhat recovered.

You could have fooled us.

I now feel that I can tell when I am being exposed to the emissions from wireless devices. My main symptom is the muscle pain. I also experience a heaviness in my eyes and head.

Oh, well if you feel it that is enough for me. Because there couldn't possibly be anything else that causes random muscle pains or aches.

Do yourself a favour Angela, first read up on what the electromagnetic spectrum is, then go and see a proper doctor.

Oh, and stop changing subjects and avoiding questions, it is really very see through.

I wouldn't change subjects and avoid questions if you all kept things down a little. I don't have the patience to go through everything you post point by point. Anyway, I came here to read what you all have to say rather than to convince you of anything. I came upon your site because people keep trying to convince me that I should check out the Secret and I googled debunking the Secret and ended up here. Is the Mora/Mara person you mentioned the one who posted there? I did see similarities in her theories on life to mine.

I do know my limits for drinking. I tend to drink more than I should, but I had only had two glasses of wine at the time I saw the clouds. Marijuana is more difficult because the thc levels vary so much. It could have been some exceptionally good pot, but I don't recall that it was. Being poor we always bought the lower quality stuff back then. I was a pretty habitual user years ago, but by the time I was living in Hawaii I smoked only rarely and then one hit was my limit. Of course I suppose something could have been applied to that particular batch of pot. I have no way of knowing that.

I give blood regularly and am very healthy. My hemoglobin levels are always quite high when the Red Cross tests it. By the way, if you take echinacea just when the symptoms of a cold first manifest you won't catch the cold. Or at least I have never caught a cold while taking echinacea. I know that is impossible to prove.

Doesn't demyelination mean that my myelin was depleted? That is one of the common effects from radiation poisoning from microwaves. The reason I found the muscle pain unusual is because it was all over. I already said that. And no I don't think it was from aging or from my work. While I was being exposed at the cell tower site I was not performing any physical work.

The estimation of the highest level of emissions came from Hammit & Edison. They are the consulting engineers who perform the monitoring of the cell tower emissions in California. They are way behind in their follow up tests here and I am certainly open to the suspicion that they are seriously lacking in expertise in the field.

I don't know what you want me to prove about the BioInitiative Report. Do you want me to go through the citations of all 2000 + studies and find where they were originally peer-reviewed? Or is it that I have to prove that the authors of the report did not conduct all of the studies?

According to NASA the electomagnetic spectrum is:

http://imagine.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/science/know_l1/emspectrum.html

The electromagnetic (EM) spectrum is just a name that scientists give a bunch of types of radiation when they want to talk about them as a group. Radiation is energy that travels and spreads out as it goes-- visible light that comes from a lamp in your house or radio waves that come from a radio station are two types of electromagnetic radiation. Other examples of EM radiation are microwaves, infrared and ultraviolet light, X-rays and gamma-rays. Hotter, more energetic objects and events create higher energy radiation than cool objects. Only extremely hot objects or particles moving at very high velocities can create high-energy radiation like X-rays and gamma-rays.

What do you think of this explanation?

On Ionizing and Non-Ionizing Radiation Some of the Facts

http://www.starweave.com/ionizing/

There are over 2,000 studies in the BioInitiative. How can you say the scientists involved wrote the report and reviewed themselves?
The fact that you haven't yet been able to provide the peer-reviewed journals in which the Bioinitiative articles are published speaks strongly to that possibility. To be totally fair, the website gives a list of six reviewers in different fields, none of whom appear to be associated with any journals (only three are associated with Universities), and one of whom only has a BS degree. I'd say the charge that they took "peer review" a little too literally is pretty accurate.
And no that was not a hallucination with the clouds. I was not that stoned or drunk.
You were drunk and stoned enough to be calling out for a sign from above, and then just happen to notice one. Mind-altering chemicals plus willful gullibility do not equal credibility.
I was sexually assaulted by a stranger. It is not anything I wish on any person.
Well, that was a sharp turn into non sequitur land. I'm sure you wouldn't wish such a traumatic experience on anyone. But do you think that you were supposed to be assaulted? If so, who's doing the supposing? Who wished that sexual assault on you?
All the same I felt compassion for the man who attacked me. I felt this because I believe that this person's life circumstances led him to behave in this way.
Not just that, but he was supposed to be behaving in that way. Why, you really can't fault him at all. It's not his fault, he was just causing your soul to evolve.
Yes he made choices,
Wait, if he made choices, then how is it that he was doing what he was supposed to be doing? Is it possible to choose something that you're not supposed to do? If you're already supposed to do something, how can you be able to choose it? Hasn't it already been chosen for you?
So, you asked for my story.
I don't recall asking for that.
Last year I started experiencing a full body muscle ache. I have spent the last ten years working as a gardener and farmer and am used to getting muscle aches, however these particular aches struck me as odd as they involved my entire body.
My first questions, in no particular (and I'm not a doctor):
Have you recently moved?
How old are you?
Have you ever been tested for allergies?
Are you currently on any medications?
Have you ever had mononucleosis?
Have you changed anything in your diet recently?
I just made a quick jaunt over to the symptom checker on WebMD. I guessed about your age (35-44), clicked "body aches and pains," and clicked "no" for their follow-up questions (is it worse after swimming in infested waters, did it develop after meeting with someone with an illness, did it develop after a trip out of the country). That brought up 19 possibilities, including the flu, fibromyalgia, hypothyroidism, lupus, porphyria, and sarcoidosis. Any of those would be a more reasonable assumption for the cause of "generalized muscle pain" than "that antenna is too close."
This full body ache came and went from March 2006 through March 2007. In addition I repeatedly had cysts on various locations, insomnia and could not concentrate enough to read a book.
Adding those into the symptom checker (which, for some reason, doesn't have a "cysts" option) brings depression, bipolar disorder, and generalized anxiety disorder into the mix, but anemia looks like it might be a likely culprit out of the more specific diagnosis. You might want to get a blood test.
The muscle aches and other symptoms did not occur during the following six weeks after my move, however after this period the full body muscle ache reoccurred.
Which makes me wonder whether it's stress-related, or possibly has to do with your diet or allergies or something.
At this time I thought there was something definitely wrong, as I was not performing any physical labor, which could have contributed to muscle aches.
And so you saw a doctor about it.

Right?

Right?

In addition to the muscle pain I started experiencing what I will describe as creaky joints. This is not something I had ever experienced before.
So you saw a doctor about it.

Right??

On the sixth day of the training, Saturday, April 28th, I knew something was seriously wrong with me.
So you saw a doctor about it.

Right???

I felt I was comprehending the lecture, but I had absolutely no recall.
We've already covered difficulty concentrating, but what the hell, I'll add in short-term memory loss. We're picking up osteoarthritis in addition to many of the previously-mentioned diseases.
I am only 5'2" and have never hesitated to find my way to the short end of a line, however I was too disoriented to place myself.
When I click on "disorientation," it tells me that I should see a doctor immediately if I'm feeling disorientation. So you saw a doctor, right?
Following this day I literally did not sleep for 96 hours. I lay awake all night each night. I quickly started doing research into cell tower emissions and found that the symptoms I was experiencing were known as common symptoms to exposure to electromagnetic radiation.
Did you do research into any other diseases that have those symptoms? A quick, cursory, detail-lacking search of WebMD brings up no less than (and actually quite a bit more, because some have changed) 20 different recognized medical ailments that might cause those same symptoms.

What you seem to be saying here is that rather than contact a doctor about your bushel of symptoms, which could be due to anything from an underactive thyroid to iron deficiency to head trauma, you did research into something you found out about from a bunch of protesters at your new workplace. And then you attributed your suffering to that research, because lo and behold, it showed the only possible thing that could be causing your symptoms.

Even though your symptoms started before you worked there.

Tell us, Angela, have you ever seen a doctor--a real doctor--about these problems?

A couple of other things occurred which may have contributed to my severe reaction.
To...what, exactly?
One was that I donated blood on the Friday before that sixth class. I later found out that there were cell tower antennas on the roof of the building where I donated blood. I was at the donation center for approximately three hours that day. And on the day that my symptoms became severe I went for a walk at lunchtime on a hill above the property with the cell tower antennas. I am left wondering if perhaps I wandered into a hot spot from the cell tower.
Or (I know, this is crazy talk), you have a disorder like anemia or lupus or allergies. Being a small woman, blood donation's probably going to take quite a bit out of you; if you've already got anemia, the effect will be even more pronounced. I used to work the blood drives at my high school; there's a reason we make people sit down and eat or drink for a bit before leaving, and tell them not to engage in any hard activities for awhile (like, you know, walking on hills). Otherwise, especially if very small or very thin, they have a tendency to pass out.

Lupus can be aggravated by outdoor activities, like gardening and walking around. Allergies, obviously, can be aggravated by being in the outdoors, and can cause all manner of aches and pains and attention deficits. Have you ever been tested for any of these, or did you just assume that the least likely explanation was probably the correct one?

I now recall that I had a wireless router in my bedroom from August 2005 through March 2007 which meant that my earlier symptoms had developed about six months after the installation of the router.
And what else happened in those six months?
Following my research into the damage caused by electro magnetic radiation I immediately started taking nutritional supplements, changed my diet and exercised as much as I could.
If electromagnetic radiation was causing your problems, why would changing your diet and nutritional supplements help? If those changes helped, isn't it possible that your problem was nutritional, not electromagnetic?
I do not have health insurance or the income to go to doctors so I did not seek professional help or documentation.
There's such a thing as a free clinic, or an HMO, or, you know, friends and family who might help with costs. How much do you spend on herbal supplements, vitamins, and other stuff without knowing anything about what's actually causing your symptoms? Wouldn't it be better to stop wasting money on blind guesswork and put it toward actually figuring out what's wrong?
I started taking an anti inflammatory supplement called xyflamend for the whole body muscle aches; A capsule containing flax, borage and fish oils for the potential damage to my myelin.
Myelin is the protective, conductive covering around neurons. What would that have to do with muscle pain? A quick look at the symptoms of demyelination shows only one of the symptoms you've discussed--memory loss. Nothing about muscle pain, joint stiffness, or difficulty concentrating.
In addition I added tryptophan rich foods, which help to regulate sleep.
Wikipedia's entry on tryptophan suggests that it may be helpful in treating various depression-related disorders (since tryptophan is a precursor to serotonin). You might recall that several of the disorders listed above as potential diagnoses are depression-related. So it makes sense that tryptophan might help you if your insomnia were caused by depression or anxiety disorders (or other medical issues). Not so much if it's caused by radio waves.
On the fifth night after my severe reaction I was able to sleep at night and my muscle pain receded. My brain capacity felt somewhat recovered. It took a month before I felt completely recovered.
Surprise, surprise, after recovering from a blood donation and changing dietary habits and other aspects of her life, her condition improved. Therefore, it must have been caused by the thing she assumed without reason was causing it.

Explain to me again why changing your diet and nutritional supplements would have such a great effect if your problem isn't related in any way to diet and nutrition? Whereas if you're anemic, for instance, and you start taking a multivitamin that contains iron, then you're directly working to correct the problem that has caused your symptoms. If you're sensitive to radio waves, and you start taking a multivitamin...then aren't you still sensitive to radio waves? Shouldn't you have experienced almost no recovery whatsoever?

I now feel that I can tell when I am being exposed to the emissions from wireless devices. My main symptom is the muscle pain. I also experience a heaviness in my eyes and head.
That sounds like an easy claim to test. How would you like to win a million dollars? That'd buy a lot of herbal supplements and health insurance.

Here's the problem in a nutshell: you assumed, based on no evidence, that you knew what caused all your problems. You then changed a variety of things and experienced some relief. Because of that, you assume that your first unsupported assumption was correct, when there's still no evidence for it. All this, and you've still never seen a doctor.

Here's what I'm going to recommend, knowing full well that you're absolutely convinced by your faith in this EMF danger thing, despite having zero evidence to support it: go to your local phone book or do a search online, and find a free clinic in your area. If there aren't any, then you might call around to doctors' offices in the area, explain your situation, and see if you can work out a payment option. Failing all that, why not talk to your friend who has all this money to blow on acupuncture and RF meters, and see if she'll front you the cash to see a real live MD. What you might find out of all this is that you have some simple disorder or disease with a fairly simple cure (such as iron supplements for anemia), which could end up saving you a fortune in the long run on herbal teas and vitamins and supplements that you're buying based on guesswork.

Wouldn't you rather do the tests and be sure, or do the tests and find out that the doctors can't explain it and maybe it is actually radio emissions, than to just guess and assume you're right?

Jimmy_Blue:

It's funny, but your symptoms could actually be symptoms of Demyelination.

Can't tell if you're being entirely serious here or not. That list of symptoms doesn't seem to jive very well with Angela's list, unless you interpret "muscle aches" as "fatigue" or something.

Angela:

I don't have the patience to go through everything you post point by point.

I guess your concentration issues haven't improved much, then. You do realize that we've all been going through your posts point by point, correct?

I do know my limits for drinking. I tend to drink more than I should, but I had only had two glasses of wine at the time I saw the clouds. Marijuana is more difficult because the thc levels vary so much. It could have been some exceptionally good pot, but I don't recall that it was. Being poor we always bought the lower quality stuff back then.
Of course, mixing "not enough alcohol" with "not enough pot" couldn't possibly enhance the mind-altering qualities of either drug until they're "enough."
By the way, if you take echinacea just when the symptoms of a cold first manifest you won't catch the cold. Or at least I have never caught a cold while taking echinacea. I know that is impossible to prove.
It's not impossible to prove in the least. Studies so far have shown little to no effect of echinacea on cold susceptibility or length. The fact is that some people have stronger immune systems than others, and some people just don't get colds for quite some time. When I was a kid, I'd get strep throat once or twice every year; now it's been several years since I've had it. It all depends on any number of factors, but echinacea doesn't seem to be one of them, according to the evidence.

Incidentally, what does this have to do with anything?

That is one of the common effects from radiation poisoning from microwaves.
Um...according to whom? Demyelination is caused by heavy metal poisoning and neurodegenerative diseases, according to my sources, not microwave exposure.
And no I don't think it was from aging or from my work. While I was being exposed at the cell tower site I was not performing any physical work.
You don't think lots of things; until you get checked out by a professional, all your "not thinking" really doesn't amount to much. Jimmy's point was that years of physical labor can put the body under strain as it ages. Your time in the garden might have had long-term wear-and-tear effects on your body.
They are way behind in their follow up tests here and I am certainly open to the suspicion that they are seriously lacking in expertise in the field.
I can think of a few people who are lacking in expertise in the field of electromagnetic radiation. Guess who's at the top of my list.
Do you want me to go through the citations of all 2000 + studies and find where they were originally peer-reviewed?
How about you find something to suggest that they were peer-reviewed and where they were published?
What do you think of this explanation?
I think you copied and pasted it without really understanding a word of it, which is unfortunate because it's from NASA's site for children. Try reading it, and then explain to us why you're sensitive to and affected by low-level, low-energy radiation such as radio waves and microwaves, but you're not affected by much higher energy forms of EM radiation, such as light.
On Ionizing and Non-Ionizing Radiation Some of the Facts
Gosh, who do I trust on the scientific facts about radiation, the World Health Organization (I posted the link in an earlier post), or a site that tries to explain quantum theory with bad bullet analogies? The WHO, or a site that relies on old urban legends about microwaved kidneys as if they're actually factual? A global scientific organization, or a site that tries to claim that since photoreceptor neurons are sensitive to light, all neurons must be sensitive to microwaves? Gosh, it's so hard to choose!

i personally hate photons. Angela - tom, jimmy, and myself have all given you MEDICAL reasons for your issues that don't rely on a crackpot theory of radiation. In case you were wondering, you're pelted with microwave, gamma, and photon radiation all day long. the entire universe is a giant backdrop of microwave radiation.

some people wonder why homeopaths and accupuncturists and their ilk make so much money. It's because of people like angela.

Now if you'll excuse me, i have to go take some belladonna.

Angela:

Tom has pretty much said everything I would have tried to say in response, so there won't be much more for me to add. I just want to be clear that if I don't address something you said it is not because I can't, but because I've nothing new to add to what he said.

I came upon your site because people keep trying to convince me that I should check out the Secret and I googled debunking the Secret and ended up here. Is the Mora/Mara person you mentioned the one who posted there? I did see similarities in her theories on life to mine.

Yes Mora is the one who posted there. Yes her views are very similar to yours.

I do know my limits for drinking.

Spoken like a true alcoholic. Now, I don't believe that you are alcoholic, but how many times has everybody heard someone say this? Shortly before projectile vomiting, uncontrollable mood swings, passing out or other such entertainment occurs?

The question was not what you feel your limits are, but what they actually are in terms of your blood/alcohol levels before you become cognitively impaired.

You don't know this, so you can't possibly say that whatever level of either substance you consumed was not enough to produce a reaction in you. Furthermore, you are now looking back on a distant distorted memory of an event that involved mind altering substances. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that recall of this event is completely unreliable.

I was a pretty habitual user years ago, but by the time I was living in Hawaii I smoked only rarely and then one hit was my limit.

You don't say. But your recall of the event, and subsequent health problems now couldn't possibly have anything to do with this?

I give blood regularly and am very healthy.

Apart from all those symptoms you described of course.

The reason I found the muscle pain unusual is because it was all over. I already said that. And no I don't think it was from aging or from my work. While I was being exposed at the cell tower site I was not performing any physical work.

But it could have been from any of the things Tom mentioned as well as Multiple Scelerosis or Myalgic Encephalomyelitis.

And of course, it doesn't matter what you think because you are already biased towards EM radiation. You never saw a doctor, so you don't know.

What do you think of this explanation?

That as Tom said, you recognise the symbols but don't understand what they mean, or what their significance is in relation to this debate.

Tom:

Can't tell if you're being entirely serious here or not. That list of symptoms doesn't seem to jive very well with Angela's list, unless you interpret "muscle aches" as "fatigue" or something.

Bit of both, I have just been looking for any illness that contains one or more of Angela's described symptoms. That and it gave me a chance to throw in some autism woo.

Bit of both, I have just been looking for any illness that contains one or more of Angela's described symptoms. That and it gave me a chance to throw in some autism woo.
Gotcha. When I saw "heavy metal poisoning" on the Wikipedia entry, I knew there had to be some connection to autism woo. I'm beginning to think that autism woo is the Kevin Bacon of woo. It ties to everything in just a few short steps.

I'm sorry I don't have the time or the inclination to go through every point you all make, so I will pick and choose whichever ones come to my faulty mind.

I know the NASA explanation was for children. I was asked if I knew what the electromagnetic spectrum was. I posted a response that even a child could understand on purpose. I thought it was kind of cute that it said that the electromagnetic spectrum is just a name scientists give a bunch of types of radiation.

I have not tried to represent myself as a scientist. I love science and read about it, but I do not study it. One of my favorite phenomenons is sonoluminessence.

You were right about the guess of my age. I'm 44. I know I'm getting older and aches and pains happen as we age. I know it could all have been a coincidence in the timing of my symptoms. And I have yet to find a free clinic. I fall into that category where I make too much to qualify for free health care, but I do not have enough money to pay for doctors bills. I spend about $60/month on the supplements I take regularly. If I spent that money on health insurance I would not have the money to buy the supplements and then I would be needing a doctor. That is what I think most people do.

That is why I feel so angry about my radiation poisoning. There should be warnings at sites with cell towers. Our county actually has a requirement for signage at cell tower sites, but I have not been able to get them to enforce it.

I appreciate all of the work you all are doing in your attempt to diagnose my symptoms. It is very sweet of you all to be so concerned. The reason I took all of those supplements is because there are certain chemicals that emr is known to deplete. I mentioned them when I listed the supplements with the exception of trytophan. The tryptophan was my indirect way of replenishing melatonin. (See - http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/melatonin/NS_patient-melatonin)

There is no way in the world I am going to go through all of the studies in the BioInitiative and track down where they were published. You all are the one's who want convincing. Not me.

I have been drinking and smoking pot for over 20 years. My experience with the clouds was about ten years ago. I took a fair amount of acid back in high school and some mushrooms. I never had hallucinations with anything I took. In fact I always felt kind of ripped off. Nowadays I still drink regularly. Alcoholism runs in my family so I am very careful. I've lost a sister and a brother to alcohol and I am not going down that path. I smoke pot every once in a blue moon. Mostly if I am at a party and everyone else is smoking. I did take some mushrooms last summer. It was the first time in 7 years and the time before that was about 7 yrs prior as well. And once again I did not have any hallucinations. I went to a secluded spot at the beach and found myself feeling immensely sad at the uncaring nature of nature. Sometimes it comes across as a machine. We just go churning on. Eat or be eaten is how nature works. Sure there is some cooperation, but it mostly self serving. And no this was not prior to my symptoms. It was after my recovery. I had no ill health effects after taking the mushrooms that I could detect.

Of course the clouds could have been a hallucination. I am more inclined to say it was my imagination. I was glad my boyfriend at the time was there to see it to. But I've read about mass hallucinations so I can't rule that out. You can take it or leave it. It actually kind of pissed me off when I saw it because I was like, faith in what? That is why I have thought so much on the subject over the years. I feel that spirituality is very individual. I was very turned off to anything spiritual during my catholic school upbringing and dismissed it completely for years. But I have had some experiences other than the clouds that have given me reason to believe there is something more going on than the pure physical. I believe our thoughts can be sent beyond our bodies. I've read of studies where reactions occur split seconds prior to something happening.

I have noticed that no one touched the two studies that I posted earlier. Did they past scrutiny? Here they are again.

Israeli study says regular mobile use increases tumour risk

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=071207145613.hnkq6bin&show_article=1

ICMR study confirms health risks from mobile phones

http://www.indianexpress.com/story/243721.html

And then this from Oxford:

http://aje.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/...act/149/2/135-a

Laboratory studies suggest that electric and magnetic field exposure may affect heart rate and heart rate variability. Epidemiologic evidence indicates that depressed heart rate variability is associated with reduced survival from coronary heart disease as well as increased risk of developing coronary heart disease. The authors examined mortality from cardiovascular disease in relation to occupational magnetic field exposure among a cohort of 138, 903 male electric utility workers from five US companies over the period 1950–1988. Cardiovascular disease deaths were categorized as arrhythmia related (n = 212), acute myocardial infarction (n = 4,238), atherosclerosis (n = 142), or chronic coronary heart disease (n =
2,210).

Exposure was classified by duration of work in jobs with
elevated magnetic field exposure and indices of cumulative magnetic field exposure. Adjusting for age, year, race, social class, and active work status, longer duration in jobs with elevated magnetic field exposure was associated with increased risk of death from arrhythmia-related conditions and acute myocardial infarction. Indices of magnetic field exposure were consistently related to mortality from arrhythmia and acute myocardial infarction, with mortality rate ratios of 1.5–3.3 in the uppermost categories. No gradients in risk were found for atherosclerosis or for chronic coronary heart disease. These data suggest a possible association between occupational magnetic fields and arrhythmia-related heart disease. Am J Epidemiol 1999;149:135–42.

that I should check out the Secret and I googled debunking the Secret and ended up here.

Interestingly enough (to me at least), that is exactly how I got here too. I hope you have now been able to tell your friends about what a load of crap it is and they should stop wasting their money and telling other people to waste theirs.


I have no idea what you have. Contrary to your beliefs about your "good health" you sound generally sick. Why you have not gone to see a doctor is totally beyond me. You said you were poor but had money for pot. Perhaps you are not poor anymore, and perhaps you can drop a hundred bucks to find out what is actually wrong with you. I am in the same situation as you about insurance, which totally sucks, but still a doctors visit once in a while is still cheaper than paying insurance.

All that sounds wrong to me is that you have not bothered to actually learn what evidence is and how to read scientific journals. Perhaps some St. John's Wort can clear up some of the depression. (thats all natural and foofy, you should like it). Once you are done with the tea, perhaps some Paxil may help.

I still wonder if you have tried a tin foil hat yet. That will help keep out EM radiation far better than vitamins and teas.

Homework:

learn what the Inverse Square Law is with regard to radiation (then think about the ridiculousness of comparing your EM exposure to that of a power line worker).

Then look up FCC part 15 (specifically FCC Part 15.247 ). Learn about the maximum power output and how it relates to the power of other devices, or better yet the EM radiation that hits the earth from the sun.

Then check out the 802.11b,g,n standards from IEEE. You will see that power output is generally below 200mW (this is at the antenna, remember the Inverse Square law). If you are afraid of this, then dont step out into the sun (1000 WATTS per square meter)


I have been drinking and smoking pot for over 20 years.

I wonder if drinking and smoking pot for 20 years (and acid and mushrooms) has any side effects? You know like lethargy, pain, and so forth.

you are very funny.

If I were you, and truly convinced I could detect Wi-Fi, then I would take Toms advice, win a million dollars, and stop being poor and get some medical help.

I posted a response that even a child could understand on purpose.
And yet you made no effort do demonstrate that you understood it.
I thought it was kind of cute that it said that the electromagnetic spectrum is just a name scientists give a bunch of types of radiation.
Yes, a bunch of different types of radiation, made from orthogonal oscillating electric and magnetic wavefronts propagating through no medium at the speed of light, and differing only in frequency, wavelength, and amplitude.
I have not tried to represent myself as a scientist. I love science and read about it, but I do not study it.
And yet you fancy yourself an expert on the effects of electromagnetic radiation on the human body. The problem with "reading about science" is that, unless you do so with a modicum of background knowledge and a skeptical mindset, it's hard to separate the poorly-conducted evidence-free chaff from the well-supported wheat.

If you're really interested in reading about science, why not read a little about Occam's Razor? The principle, a fairly important one to the skeptical scientific method, states that when you have two explanations that are equally supported by the evidence, the one that proposes the fewest unknown entities is the one we should accept.

Jimmy, Genewitch, and I have all proposed known medical conditions which are known to cause your symptoms through known mechanisms. You've proposed that these symptoms are caused by certain types of electromagnetic radiation through no mechanism known to physics or biology. Which one satisfies Occam's Razor?

Of course, there's an easy way to eliminate any need for the razor: to get some evidence. Go to the doctor, give her a detailed description of your symptom history, and let her run some tests. Once there's an imbalance of evidence, due for instance to the doctor saying "your blood test came back positive for lyme disease" or something, then we accept the explanation with more evidential support.

You were right about the guess of my age. I'm 44. I know I'm getting older and aches and pains happen as we age. I know it could all have been a coincidence in the timing of my symptoms.
A coincidence, or some other disorder.
And I have yet to find a free clinic. I fall into that category where I make too much to qualify for free health care, but I do not have enough money to pay for doctors bills. I spend about $60/month on the supplements I take regularly. If I spent that money on health insurance I would not have the money to buy the supplements and then I would be needing a doctor. That is what I think most people do.
I don't know about "most people," but that is one of the nasty, unfortunate effects of having no universal healthcare system.

But I'm not saying you have to get expensive insurance. I'm saying you really ought to see a doctor. I know it's more expensive to see one without insurance than with, but there are ways to do it without breaking your bank. I did a search for "free clinic directory" on Google, and came up with a variety of directories in different states: which state do you live in? Do you live near a college? In my experience, there's usually some kind of express care clinic near colleges, which aren't too pricey. They aren't often the best doctors, but you get what you pay for. Do you live anywhere near Canada? Our neighbor to the north does have a decent healthcare system.

That is why I feel so angry about my radiation poisoning.
I have a sudden pounding pain in my head. Maybe it's my wireless router.

Look, you don't have radiation poisoning. Radiation poisoning comes from ionizing radiation--gamma rays, X-rays, cosmic rays--not low-energy, low-frequency radio waves. Have you been vomiting? Have you had decreased white blood cell count? Have you had uncontrollable internal bleeding? These are the symptoms of radiation poisoning, not body aches and joint stiffness.

What you think you have, based on no evidence, is some kind of effect due to very low-level, non-ionizing, low-frequency radiation. Some kind of effect that, according to all physics and biology, should not exist. Some kind of effect that, since you've never actually seen a doctor about this, could be attributable to any number of actual factual real-live ailments.

And yet, you're angry about it. You're angry about something you've assumed without evidence. And you're trying to change policy in order to do something about it. Instead of calling your county board and trying to get them to put up more warning signs (exactly what will that do to lower the level of radiation again?), why don't you put that time toward earning a little extra money so you can see a doctor?

I appreciate all of the work you all are doing in your attempt to diagnose my symptoms. It is very sweet of you all to be so concerned. The reason I took all of those supplements is because there are certain chemicals that emr is known to deplete.
Known by whom? How does emr deplete these chemicals?
There is no way in the world I am going to go through all of the studies in the BioInitiative and track down where they were published. You all are the one's who want convincing. Not me.
Who said "all"? How about one? Doesn't the BioInitiative have a page of references?
I have been drinking and smoking pot for over 20 years. My experience with the clouds was about ten years ago. I took a fair amount of acid back in high school and some mushrooms. I never had hallucinations with anything I took.
Sure you did, you just explained them away as signs from above.

You've been doing a variety of mind-altering drugs for over 20 years, and you don't think that might affect your body? Smoking pot causes muscle atrophy, prolonged alcohol use can reduce bone mineral density, and can cause...you guessed it...anemia.

But of course, it'd be silly to think that any of that has had an effect on your health. No, it must be the cell phone towers!

I believe our thoughts can be sent beyond our bodies.
Yes, absolutely they can. I can send thoughts beyond my body any time I want. It's called communication.
I've read of studies where reactions occur split seconds prior to something happening.
I read that study too. In fact, I think I have the citation right here: Raimi, S. (2002). "The effects of genetically-engineered spider venom on human anatomy." Spider-Man, 1.
I have noticed that no one touched the two studies that I posted earlier. Did they past scrutiny? Here they are again.
Your first link leads nowhere. Your second link says the effects "may be possible if not probable" and that they used a small sample size. The article suggests, though a typo makes it difficult to say with certainty, that the radiation levels in New Delhi are over ten times greater than what's recommended by the WHO.

And yet, this is an article, with no link or citation of the actual report, which makes it rather difficult to evaluate the details of the experiment. And so, we have one article with no details on methodology and controls, which may suggest that radiation far in excess of WHO recommendations can decrease sperm count and testicular size. And we have a comprehensive WHO report that says the dosage any normal person receives from normal exposure will have no ill health effects, along with explanations why. Which study has the greater credibility?

And your third study, which I'll give you props for actually finding a journal abstract, shows that there may be a correlation between working as an electrician around magnetic fields (and other things) for decades, and increased risk of certain kinds of cardiovascular disease. Interesting, certainly, and worthy of greater examination. However, not only does it not say that "magnetic fields cause heart disease" (correlation is not causation), not only does it apparently fail to account for changes in safety regulations and precautions taken between 1950 and 1988 (the period covered by the study), but it says nothing about anything remotely resembling your symptoms or lifestyle. Unless, you know, you neglected to mention that you moonlight as an electrician.

So, none of these actually show any connection between your everyday exposure to low-level electromagnetic radiation and your symptoms. None of this explains what mechanism allows the radiation to cause those symptoms. None of this explains what evidence you have to support your contention that your symptoms aren't due to normal aging, prolonged drug and alcohol use, or some medical ailment, but instead are due to a rare and heretofore unknown and unproven effect of low-energy non-ionizing radiation on the human body. Maybe instead of getting angry at the county for not putting up a couple of warning signs around cell phone towers, you should get angry that you've spent years believing something without any evidence, shelling out hard-earned money for what may amount to $60 worth of placebo every month, and never actually going to the one person who could set you straight.

See a doctor. If your prognosis comes back "completely unknown, we have no idea what might be wrong with you, but you sure are missing a lot of chemicals," then you can come here and gloat about it. You still wouldn't have proven that it's electromagnetic radiation, but at least you would have ruled out some alternatives.

Angela:

I'm sorry I don't have the time or the inclination to go through every point you all make, so I will pick and choose whichever ones come to my faulty mind.

Yes I can imagine you don't have the inclination. No one likes having it pointed out that their cherished beliefs are completely ridiculous and baseless.

I posted a response that even a child could understand on purpose.

And did it help you?

I have not tried to represent myself as a scientist.

Oh don't worry, the thought that you were never crossed my mind for a second.

I love science and read about it, but I do not study it.

Or understand it from what we've seen here.

I know it could all have been a coincidence in the timing of my symptoms.

Why would it be a coincidence that as you get older you start to experience the symptoms of aging? It's kind of a given that as you get older you will, you know, start to feel older.

If I spent that money on health insurance I would not have the money to buy the supplements and then I would be needing a doctor.

Who might actually be able to, you know, cure those symptoms or determine how best to alleviate them. Instead you choose to spend money to cure something there is no evidence you have, that almost certainly doesn't exist in the manner you think it does, that couldn't be caused by what you think it is caused by, and you have no evidence that what you are taking even cures what you think it does.

How does that saying about a fool and their money go?

That is why I feel so angry about my radiation poisoning.

Obviously you haven't read the science on this.

Your symptoms:
Fatigue
Muscle ache
Insomnia
Disorientation

Radiation poisoning symptoms (these are all possible symptoms, it varies with exposure):
Headaches
Drop in red blood cell count
Temporary and eventually permanent Sterility
Nausea
Increased risk of infection
Fatigue
Spontaneous abortion or stillbirth in pregnant women
Hair loss
Loss of white blood cells
Bleeding in the mouth, under the skin and in the kidneys
Destruction of bone marrow
Gastric and intestinal tissue severely damaged
Massive diarrhea
Intestinal bleeding and loss of water
Delirium
Coma
Death

What you had was not radiation sickness. Note that fatigue doesn't even appear as a symptom until exposure levels reach 1–2 Sv (100–200 REM). A dose of 2 Sv has between a 10% and 35% chance of killing you in the first 30 days. Did you measure how many sieverts you could have been exposed to Angela?

It is very sweet of you all to be so concerned.

I'm not. I'm pointing out you're almost certainly wrong. Don't flatter yourself.

You all are the one's who want convincing. Not me.

That is the problem.

I have been drinking and smoking pot for over 20 years. My experience with the clouds was about ten years ago. I took a fair amount of acid back in high school and some mushrooms. I never had hallucinations with anything I took. In fact I always felt kind of ripped off. Nowadays I still drink regularly.

So, you have been a prolonged user of mind altering substances. Acid is known to be linked to flashbacks even years after it was last ingested. But you are certain that you didn't experience an hallucination. Even though at the time you had been drinking and smoking pot. And you are recalling an event that happened ten years ago. And you've taken drugs in between then and now. And your prejudices and biases have almost certainly filtered your memory.

Lo and behold, look what can be short term effects of cannabis use:

Short term memory loss
Short term attention loss
loss of motor skills
reduced reaction time
lowered ability to perform skilled activities

It is suspected but not yet generally accepted that long term heavy use can make these effects permanent.

But you are convinced you didn't hallucinate and you are remembering this event correctly.

Of course the clouds could have been a hallucination. I am more inclined to say it was my imagination.

I'm sorry, but what exactly is the difference in real terms here?

I was glad my boyfriend at the time was there to see it to. But I've read about mass hallucinations so I can't rule that out.

Must have been some good shit.

But I have had some experiences other than the clouds that have given me reason to believe there is something more going on than the pure physical.

All of which I am sure have a far more plausible explanation that you just haven't bothered to look for. And I'm willing to bet many of them are related to drugs and/or alcohol intake.

I believe our thoughts can be sent beyond our bodies.

I believe the same thing. I think something. Then I type it on a keyboard which is connected to a computer, which is connected to the internet and BAM, my thoughts have been sent beyond my body. Speaking does a very similar thing. And it's cheaper.

In fact, this concept has been known for a very long time. I believe collections of these thoughts are called books or something like. Fascinating.

I've read of studies where reactions occur split seconds prior to something happening.

Source?

I have noticed that no one touched the two studies that I posted earlier. Did they past scrutiny?

Looking at what Tom writes, no.

Excuse me, while I butt in here.

No-one, but no-one, can be this idiotic. Even the genius on the Autism thread wasn't this brain-dead and continuing this conversation isn't getting anyone anywhere.

To bring up an old usenet adage, "You Have Been Trolled".

I base this remarkable piece of deduction on the fact that I refuse to even countenance the possibility that someone capable of making claims of this kind could possibly live on the same planet as me and yet, at the same time, be able to successfully operate a computer.

There. That's my completely unsubstantiated opinion out in the world for all to see. It's about as valid as whatever nonsense 'Angela' is spouting.

You may be forgetting Hanlon's Razor:

Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.

Even if Angela's not for real, I guarantee you there are real people out there holding the same malformed ideas with the same absolute certainty.

Incidentally, I think we should create a corollary to Poe's Law ("Without a winking smiley or other blatant display of humor, it is impossible to create a parody of Fundamentalism that SOMEONE won't mistake for the real thing.") regarding woo. Something along the lines of "In any woo domain, there is no theory too ridiculous to draw serious believers."

As proof, I submit the Reptilian conspiracy, the "Death Star" 9/11 conspiracies, and Deepak Chopra.

It's been fun (and painful) watching these exchanges. All the EMR stuff is especially stupid, since woos seem to have no sense of scale. Humans already experience wide variation in sunlight based on latitude, altitude, and cloud cover. And she expects us to believe a minuscule amount of low-energy radiation somehow trumps the "horror" of a sunny day, when the sun's radiation hits a peak?

On the drug stuff, to insert a bit of irrelevant psychobabble: She wrecks her body with drugs we know to be harmful, and now she's looking to blame someone else for the consequences of her actions.

This comment spam filter thing is getting to be ridiculous. I mean, if I knew what set it off, I might be able to avoid it, but this post isn't even long, and doesn't have any links! Let's see if it works this time.

And she expects us to believe a minuscule amount of low-energy radiation somehow trumps the "horror" of a sunny day, when the sun's radiation hits a peak?
Yeah, really. I wonder, do low-scale solar flares send these people into seizures?
She wrecks her body with drugs we know to be harmful, and now she's looking to blame someone else for the consequences of her actions.
And she finds an explanation that not only allows her to self-medicate and self-diagnose, but also makes her feel special and unique for having an ailment that most people don't. She can look down her nose at the "allopathic" medicine that she can't afford, the same way a kid who can't have what he wants will say "well, it's stupid anyway." She has an ailment on which she can blame all her problems, which allows her to feel superior to doctors and scientists, to feel persecuted and oppressed by a faceless system, and which allows her to feel special and unique.

Of course she doesn't want to find out that it's something mundane and treatable through normal medicine.

you mean the fox and the grapes, tom? Aesop?

you mean the fox and the grapes, tom? Aesop?
Yes, precisely. Thanks, I'd actually forgotten that story.

The original article is no longer there for the first link. Here is the text.

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=071207145613.hnkq6bin&show_article=1

Israeli study says regular mobile use increases tumour risk

Dec 7 09:56 AM US/Eastern

Regular use of mobile telephones increases the risk of developing tumours, a new scientific study by Israeli researchers and published in the American Journal of Epidemiology revealed on Friday.

An extract of the report seen by Israel's Yedoit Aharonot newspaper put the risk of developing a parotid gland tumour nearly 50 percent higher for frequent mobile phone users -- more than 22 hours a month.

The risk was still higher if users clamped the phone to the same ear, did not use hands-free devices or were in rural areas.

"Analysis restricted to regular users or to conditions that may yield higher levels of exposure (eg heavy use in rural areas) showed consistently elevated risks," said an abstract of the report in the US journal made available to AFP.

The study included 402 benign and 58 malignant incident cases of parotid gland tumour diagnosed in Israel at age 18 years or more, in 2001-2003.

The research was led by Dr Siegal Sadetzki, a cancer and radiation expert at the Chaim Sheba Medical Centre in Israel and as part of a World Health Organisation project.


Here are symptoms associated with the non-ionizing radiation:

http://www.cam.net.uk/home/aaa315/eco/no-to-mobile-phones.htm#facts

Damage nerves in the scalp
Cause blood cells to leak hemoglobin
Cause memory loss and mental confusion
Cause headaches and induce extreme fatigue
Create joint pain, muscle spasms and tremors
Create burning sensation and rash on the skin
Alter the brain's electrical activity during sleep
Induce ringing ! in the ears, impair sense of smell
Precipitate cataracts, retina damage and eye cancer
Open the blood-brain barrier to viruses and toxins
Reduce the number and efficiency of white blood cells
Stimulate asthma by producing histamine in mast cells
Cause digestive problems and raise bad cholesterol levels
Stress the endocrine system, especially pancreas, thyroid, ovaries, testes


I did not experience any ill health effects during or after I took the mushrooms last summer. But of course anything that interacts with our bodies will have some kind of effect. I would like to see more research into psychedelics and make one of my few donations I can afford to http://www.maps.org/. They are doing a trial using mdma for post traumatic stress disorder. Perhaps my use of psychedelics is why I was not traumatized when I was attacked. I've never tried ecstasy because of the potential brain damage, but there does seem to be some success using it for ptsd. Granted I think lsd is pretty toxic. I took it nearly twenty years ago and would not take it now.

Here's a link to a recent Washington Post Magazine article on the trial.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/11/20/AR2007112001777.html

Overall I feel very healthy. I am pretty much a health nut. As I mentioned every time I have given blood the red cross has tested my high levels of hemoglobin. I am not anemic.

As I said I appreciate you all commenting on my posts. I hope you keep an open mind about the non-ionizing radiation harm. Here are two quotes that I think sum up the situation:

“Radio frequencies emitted from mobile telephone towers will have deleterious medical effects to people within the near vicinity according to a large body of scientific literature. Babies and children will be particularly sensitive to the mutagenic and carcinogenic effects of the radio frequency radiation. It is therefore criminal to place one of these aerials on or near a school.”

Helen Caldicott, MD, pediatrician and co-founder of Physicians for Social Responsibility

"The FCCs current exposure guidelines…are thermally based, and do not apply to chronic, non-thermal exposure situations… Therefore, the generalization that the guidelines protect human beings from harm by any or all mechanisms is not justified.”

Norbert Hankin, of the Radiation

Israeli study says regular mobile use increases tumour risk
I'd really like to see the actual journal article for this. Even assuming that the study isn't hideously flawed, what it demonstrates is correlation, not causation. It'd take significantly more testing to even begin to demonstrate the latter.
Here are symptoms associated with the non-ionizing radiation:
No, they aren't associated with non-ionizing radiation. They're associated with people like you, who assume that the pitifully small amounts of anthropocentric non-ionizing radiation have an effect on the body. Like you, they offer no evidence for their claim (citing a vague "recent studies"), no mechanism by which non-ionizing radiation might cause these effects, and a variety of symptoms that are either unprovable ("Alter the brain's electrical activity during sleep"), unlikely ("Open the blood-brain barrier to viruses and toxins"), or more accurately explained by other well-known causes. Cell phones will not raise your bad cholesterol, Angela, and I don't believe you're stupid enough to think they would. How, exactly, would that work?

Why is it that you'll believe even the most superficially-flawed site that agrees with your preconceived notions, but you'll completely ignore the fact that the large-scale, scientifically-valid analysis of the World Health Organization expressly conflicts with your view, the basic science of non-ionizing radiation and the human body (and the electric and magnetic fields of the Earth, and the electromagnetic radiation from the sun) conflicts with your view, and that these and your ailments might be better explained by actual recognized medical conditions?

I did not experience any ill health effects during or after I took the mushrooms last summer.
Are you sure you didn't experience ill health effects and just attribute them to cell phone towers, though?
Overall I feel very healthy. I am pretty much a health nut.
With an emphasis on the "nut." Sorry Angela, you left yourself wide open for that.

The problem is that you certainly don't sound like someone who's particularly healthy (given your litany of symptoms), or particularly concerned about your health (given your drug use and your refusal to seek medical care). If I want to be healthy, the first thing I do is find out what I ought to be concerned about with regard to my health--by consulting a physician, by getting a physical, by having someone qualified tell me what I have and what I ought to watch out for.

As I mentioned every time I have given blood the red cross has tested my high levels of hemoglobin. I am not anemic.
Then there's still another 19 or so potential explanations that you haven't ruled out.
As I said I appreciate you all commenting on my posts. I hope you keep an open mind about the non-ionizing radiation harm.
I have an open mind, just not so open that my brain falls out. My problem with the alleged harm of non-ionizing radiation is that the evidence of large-scale, well-controlled studies shows that it has no noticeable effect, the science behind it says that it should have no noticeable effect, and the fact that we're bathed in much higher frequencies and levels of EM radiation from the sun and Earth without those ill effects suggests that there should be no noticeable effect. All signs point to "no real harm." I think it's likely that radiation well in excess of the recommended limits might have some negative effect on the body, after all, that's why there are limits. But the everyday exposure level seems to me to present far less harm than your everyday exposure to the sun and the planet Earth.
Here are two quotes that I think sum up the situation:
Quotations are worthless without data. The data of decades of research contradict the first quote, showing no such risk. The second quote assumes, without any supportive evidence, that there are non-thermal effects of non-ionizing radiation that would be noticeable and harmful. You can't claim that the FCC isn't protecting people from a radiation that you haven't proven is harmful.

So far, I see no evidence that everyday levels of exposure are harmful to people (and lots of evidence that they aren't harmful). I see no scientific mechanism which would explain how low-level non-ionizing radiation would cause harmful non-thermal effects in the human body. I see no explanation for why the amount of electromagnetic radiation from human sources would cause major effects, while something that emits much larger amounts, like a solar flare, wouldn't. In short, I don't see any evidence that this condition exists, and I don't see any reason to believe that it's likely to exist. I'm open to new evidence and new information, but so far the science, the evidence, and Occam's Razor all point to "some other recognized medical condition."

Angela:

Do you have radiation poisoning or not?

Is your list cumulative like actual radiation poisoning?

How was it established that these are symptoms of the problem they are ascribed to? I'm going to go out on a limb and say it is completely circular.

How was the list of symptoms established?

Alter the brain's electrical activity during sleep

By what mechanism? Where is the proof of this?

Induce ringing ! in the ears, impair sense of smell

How?

Open the blood-brain barrier to viruses and toxins

How? And does it involve mercury?

raise bad cholesterol levels

You're joking, aren't you?

This stuff just get's crazier and crazier.

Oh, and what Tom said.

You guys have to be the some of the most generous people in the world for putting so much effort into helping Angela. In sharp contrast to the people who are scaring her and ripping her off. These charlatans who take so much of Angela's money that she can't afford a doctor also are amongst the laziest people in the world. Why spend years learning all our best accumulated knowledge when you you can snip of the last 200 years (the hard bit) - and then absurdly claim that the ideas that have died are yet to be discovered. I feel for Angela - she is a victim of very shrewd operators who thrive on the vulnerabilities of people like Angela who has suffered abuse and poor health. Despite this, she has worked hard and has tried to find knowledge that will help her. It's such a shame that when she googles for help she is very likely to come across a space cadet site, so rampant have they become. On the bright side, Angela is here now. She has stumbled into a place where truth matters, and no one is making any money out of her. Angela, has anyone ever spent this much time and this much effort into listening to every word of your story? For what it's worth, listen back.

Is it the natural supplement companies that I am supposed to be angry at for taking my money?

I started taking Vision Enhancement by Gaia Herbs two years ago because I could tell my vision was starting to go. My mother, father, two brothers and my six sisters all had to wear glasses in their early forties. My vision has not diminished at all since I started taking the formula. Maybe it's luck. My goal is to never need glasses.

Yes I am a health nut. I don't have a car and get around by bike or walking, eat mostly organic and overall feel super healthy.

That is why I knew something was wrong last year.

Since I have avoided wireless emissions from cell phones and wi-fi I have been symptom free. Although I did go to an acquaintance's home the other night who has wi-fi. Within an hour of being there ( I stayed about 4 hours) I could feel a sensation in my teeth and my eyes. The best I can describe it was that I felt like my head was being microwaved. It took four days for things to feel back to normal.

I believe that I have been sensitized to the emissions from cell phones and wi-fi from my extreme exposure while taking the training.

You all may dismiss the evidence from the BioInitiative. I do not. Have any of you seen "Thank You for not Smoking" You might get an idea of what is going on if you do.

Here is the latest news from France.


http://www.lemonde.fr/web/article/0,[email protected],36-991086,0.html

Angela:

It's at this point that there is little point in talking to you.

You could tell your vision was going you say, but did you pay a visit to the opticians?

My parents and one of my brothers all wear glasses but I don't. My vision was tested by the Royal Air Force and found to be perfect, so what does that prove? I haven't had to take any ridiculous herbal supplements.

Within an hour of being there ( I stayed about 4 hours) I could feel a sensation in my teeth and my eyes.

Fancy that. You're convinced that exposure to certain things causes you illness, and when you think you are exposed to them, you think you're ill.

See a doctor.

I believe that I have been sensitized to the emissions from cell phones and wi-fi from my extreme exposure while taking the training.

Did everyone else at the training get ill? Why not?

Have any of you seen "Thank You for not Smoking" You might get an idea of what is going on if you do.

I Googled this and found no film by that name, I checked IMDB and only found "Thank">http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0427944/">"Thank you for smoking.", which is a satirical comedy.

What are you referring to?

Your article's in French. But since it's in the media it must be true. And accurate.

I haven't seen it, but the gist of the movie is that it follows a marketer/lobbyist for the tobacco industry as he tries to combat all the efforts to prove that tobacco is dangerous.

Of course, it doesn't in any way resemble Angela's circumstances. She could try applying to something equivalent to the JREF Paranormal Challenge to prove that she can feel discomfort when someone switches on wi-fi. That would be evidence that wouldn't be subject to spin.

And, there's all those differences like mechanisms of action that can be described for tobacco, high-quality studies, and so forth. Tobacco got slammed because our knowledge of chemistry and biology gave cause for concern, and, most importantly, when tested, the evidence agreed with the scientific worries.

When I described my symptoms to the organization where I took the training they mentioned that many people there were experiencing muscle ache and that they called it the Walnut Women's Center Flu. They were only in the location temporarily and were moving out a month after I quit the training so I did not pursue a prolonged conversation with the center.

The officials of the church where the antennas are located are completely dismissive of any possibility of harm.

The evidence is there regarding the harm from wireless emissions. The following link explores many of the studies. It also mentions Electrohypersensitivity. It is estimated that up to 35% of humans experience a reaction to emr and ehs is recognized as a disability in Sweden.

http://www.powerwatch.org.uk/reports/20061232_havas.pdf

"Electrohypersensitivity (EHS) is now recognized by the World Health Organization (WHO) and is defined as:

“. . . a phenomenon where individuals experience adverse health effects while using or being in the vicinity of devices emanating electric, magnetic, or electromagnetic fields (EMFs). . .

Whatever its cause, EHS is a real and sometimes a debilitating problem for the affected persons, while the level of EMF in their neighborhood is no greater than is encountered in normal living environments. Their exposures are generally several orders of magnitude under the limits in internationally accepted standards."

BBC Panorama has a programme on Wi-Fi. Anyone who is interested in watching it please go to http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/panorama/default.stm and search in the archives for the May 2007 programme Wi-Fi: A warning signal.

As far as the advice for going to a doctor, I would if I had the money. But I would find an alternative practitioner. My experience with conventional doctors has been having them prescribe something to control my symptoms rather than finding out what is causing them and treating that. And the listed side effects of the products prescribed sounded much worse than my reported symptoms so I have never taken any pharmaceutical products. I am not totally dismissing pharmaceuticals. I know they help many people, but I do feel there is an emphasis on treating symptoms rather than on preventing them.

Fortunately I have been blessed with good health. I think it is my genes. The only time my mother has been in the hospital was for giving birth. I am not happy about discovering my sensitivity to emr, but is a disability I have to live with.

I agree that continuing on with this conversation is rather pointless. Thanks for listening to my story. I don't take any of your insults personally. I read back in the archives and knew that you all tend to be rather cruel to people you disagree with.

Angela, the reason I think Jimmy said there is no point talking to you is not because he is “cruel” but because you don't seem to be seriously listening to any of the advice given here. You're convinced you know what the problem is without examining other avenues. A detective, for example, would start by ruling out suspects. Even question people they think are innocent - and rule out people they think may be evil but innocent of the crime in question. Their line of inquiry is evidence-based - they look for clues. Otherwise innocent people might be locked up and killers go unpunished. Sorry to argue by analogy, but in your situation you have decided that EMF is the bad guy, even though the evidence is thin. All the other suspects (or causes) - some with the exact same effects as those you describe - are, for some unknown reason, being ruled out of the inquiry. The question is why? Why do you want to put away EMF if, for example, anaemia was at the scene of the crime (with blood on his hands :))? Isn't truth and justice best served by examining ALL the evidence. With the evidence you've got, EMF could walk.

When I described my symptoms to the organization where I took the training they mentioned that many people there were experiencing muscle ache and that they called it the Walnut Women's Center Flu.

Did they visit a doctor? Was the building air conditioned? Did those others suffer the same range of symptoms as you, or just muscle ache? Why wasn't it everybody?

The officials of the church where the antennas are located are completely dismissive of any possibility of harm.

Do the people who attend the church have your symptoms?

It also mentions Electrohypersensitivity.

Ah yes. Electrosensitivity.

BBC Panorama has a programme on Wi-Fi.

That would be this Panorama program.

There's more.

A lot more.

Or just browse the full list of Panorama/BBC articles.

As far as the advice for going to a doctor, I would if I had the money. But I would find an alternative practitioner.

No wonder you think doctors are a waste of money then.

My experience with conventional doctors has been having them prescribe something to control my symptoms rather than finding out what is causing them and treating that.

That's funny. Because if conventional doctors had just treated my mum's breast cancer symptoms, she'd be dead by now. I suggest you try finding some real doctors, not your imaginary version.

And the listed side effects of the products prescribed sounded much worse than my reported symptoms so I have never taken any pharmaceutical products.

You missed the important words out here, possible and rare.

Fortunately I have been blessed with good health.

Apart from all those serious and debilitating symptoms that you had. I've lived like a slob for 15 years, but have never had an illness as bad as you describe. Yet you still insist that you are healthy. Who are you trying to convince here?

I think it is my genes. The only time my mother has been in the hospital was for giving birth.

I've never been in hospital either, except to visit others or watch births. And I haven't had symptoms like yours. Yet I drink, I am overweight, I don't do much exercise, I don't eat healthily. Yet I sound healthier than you. And I have worked around sources of EM radiation, including wireless transmitters.

I don't take any of your insults personally. I read back in the archives and knew that you all tend to be rather cruel to people you disagree with.

Oh grow up.

If you believe the ridiculous, it deserves to be ridiculed. If you act like an ass, we'll call you an ass.

Of course, the tone of our arguments have nothing to do with the fact that people disagree with us. I'll wager I disagree with nearly everyone who posts here about the invasion of Iraq, but as long as I argued about it politely; paid attention to the arguments of others; responded with evidence and reason; didn't claim special treatment and didn't act like a twat there would be no "cruel" reaction.

You obviously didn't pay the archives enough attention, or only saw what you wanted to see.

debbyo:

Spot on!

It’s now been five weeks since I posted my list of questions for Cupo and over a month since Cupo promised to answer my “good questions”. It looks like he’s not going to answer my questions after all. We can speculate why this is, but we can be certain he wouldn’t have been able to answer them without also having to admit that he has no evidence acupuncture works and that the study he cited does not show what he claimed it shows.

Questions For Cupo

One last time, these are questions that arose from what Cupo posted here.

  1. Do you believe there are specific “correct” points for placing needles, and that there are also “wrong” (sham) points where qi cannot be manipulated?
  2. If you answer “yes” above, then how do you explain the negative result in the test I posted about? If the “real” acupuncture is no better than placebo, then what is wrong with saying that acupuncture doesn’t work?
  3. If you answer “no” then what is a “sham” point? How is any test of real v sham acupuncture (including the study you referenced) carried out?
  4. If Qi is just “something that acupuncture manipulates”, how would you falsify Qi?
  5. What, exactly, is missing from Tom Foss’ explanation of the logical line of progression that you wanted?
  6. What exactly, in the piece you quoted (beginning “The term acupuncture describes a family of procedures…”), changes the definition of acupuncture as I reported it? What part of that paragraph means that comparing real to sham points is not a valid way of falsifying qi?
  7. If you don’t think that science contains “the one and only set of rules by which we should judge things”, then what is your better method for evaluating claims? What method do you recommend that is better than science?
  8. Regarding the test you referenced:

  9. Why could the person reading the fMRI scan not possibly be just seeing just what they expect to see when they look at the MRI scan? In other words, why doesn’t that person need to be blinded? Why would that person not be subject to the same potential errors as the scientists in Benveniste’s team?
  10. Why were the results without rotating the needles, the same at the real and sham points?
  11. Why could the acupuncturist not possibly subconsciously be communicating the information to the patient when the real points were being manipulated?
  12. How is a study of just 13 people more relevant than one with 1,100 people?
  13. How did the researchers measure “stronger activation” at the real acupuncture points? What was their measure of “strength”?
  14. How did they calculate a “highly statistical significant difference” between real and sham, when they didn’t measure anything using numbers or statistics of any kind? Please show the calculations.
  15. The Liv3 and G40 “real acupoints” activated in the study relate to the Liver and the Gall Bladder respectively. How do the fMRI results confirm that these two points are indeed for these two organs, confirmed to a remarkable and highly statistical significant difference from (a) any other organs and (b) the placebo needles?

Cupo came here arrogantly crowing about my “seriously flawed logic”, claimed that disbelief in the efficacy of acupuncture was “prejudice” and “ignorant”, and derided “those precious tools of yours” (ie science). He even called Steven Novella “Jackass” for calling acupuncture “pre-scientific” (which it is). And then after deriding science, he went on to claim that there were scientific studies that showed acupuncture to be an effective treatment method. “Look it up” he again arrogantly commanded. Well we did. We actually read the study he cited. (I don’t believe he read it, but we did.) And the questions above, the ones that Cupo won’t answer, indicate the fatal flaws in the study. So ultimately, all we had was yet another arrogant woo who couldn’t back up his claims. What a surprise.

Author, it would be helpful for those of us who want to spread the word on the truth behind acupuncture quackery if you could publish an extensive list of studies from the last 20 or so years which conclude acupuncture does not work. As you can see from some of the comments here, it is not easy to reason with people. But things might change if you show upfront the SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE.

Thanks

There is no scientific proof that acupuncture works. There is not ONE serious, independent, double blind study indicating acupuncture is any better than placebo. The apparent "betterneess" of acupuncture patients is fully explained by science, and has nothing to do with acupuncture. Why is there so many people still believing in acupuncture?

Well, as long as there are hundreds of thousands (if not millions) of charlatans profitting from people's naiveness and ignorance, there will be millions of dollars spent in publicity and the wrong message will be passed along through the world. The same applies to homeopathy, sourcery and religion. Sad, but truth. Many governments validate these practices. There is nothing to do about it. nothing. It is really sad.

How interesting ...

If accupuncture has no activity whatsoever, which scientifico-medical application do you have for people undergoing heart surgery with no other anesthesia, but accupuncture ? They have a high pain threshold ?

Accupuncture has already been proven in the early 1980's to stimulate the physiological release of enkephalin and various endorphins from your own body, some of which are known to be 40-200 times more potent than morphin. If you have a spare moment today, why not leaf through the 160 scientific studies below.

One caveat, there is quite a difference between accupuncture providing acute anesthesia and accupuncture ... 'curing' diseases. But to suggest bluntly that accupuncture has no real effect is complete nonsense. Good luck !

1:
Related Articles, Links
Hsien-I PP.
No Abstract
Clinical observation on 100 cases of cardiac surgery with acupuncture anaesthesia.
Zhen Ci Yan Jiu. 1988;13(1):21-9. Chinese, English. No abstract available.
PMID: 3143500 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
2:
Related Articles, Links
Hollinger I, Richter JA, Pongratz W, Baum M.
Abstract
Acupuncture anesthesia for open heart surgery: a report of 800 cases.
Am J Chin Med. 1979 Spring;7(1):77-90.
PMID: 311153 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
3:
Related Articles, Links
Sun DJ, Hang YN, Zhang XX, Sun YL.
No Abstract
Effects of acupuncture and intravenous anesthesia on cardiovascular function.
J Tradit Chin Med. 1987 Sep;7(3):177-80. No abstract available.
PMID: 3502164 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
4:
Related Articles, Links
Sun ZF.
No Abstract
[Herniorrhaphy under electro-acupuncture anesthesia--a clinical investigation]
Zhen Ci Yan Jiu. 1987;12(2):94-8. Chinese. No abstract available.
PMID: 3117422 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
5:
Related Articles, Links
Xiang LM, Li CQ, Wu CD, Zhu MM, Xue LX, Zhu ZM, Zhu FX, Yang Z.
No Abstract
[An analysis of failure cases of acupuncture anesthesia for subtotal gastrectomy]
Zhen Ci Yan Jiu. 1985;10(4):241-5. Chinese. No abstract available.
PMID: 3937632 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
6:
Related Articles, Links
Xie SO, Huang YZ, Shen ZY, Li YB, Tang CQ, Li CG, Jing JH, Duan JW.
No Abstract
[A clinical investigation on acupuncture combined anesthesia during the abdominal hysterectomy]
Zhen Ci Yan Jiu. 1985;10(4):246-9, 282. Chinese. No abstract available.
PMID: 3937633 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
7:
Related Articles, Links
Chen EJ.
No Abstract
[Acupuncture anesthesia in plastic surgery]
Zhongguo Yi Xue Ke Xue Yuan Xue Bao. 1985 Oct;7(5):403-6. Chinese. No abstract available.
PMID: 2938767 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
8:
Related Articles, Links
Wang SY, Xu ZY, Chen SY.
No Abstract
[The clinical study on abdominal tuboligation under acupuncture anesthesia]
Zhen Ci Yan Jiu. 1988;13(3):189-93, 183. Chinese. No abstract available.
PMID: 3150306 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
9:
Related Articles, Links
Fischer MV, Raab P, von Reumont J.
Abstract
[Use of muscle relaxants under electrostimulation anesthesia (ESA)]
Anaesthesist. 1983 Dec;32(12):597-600. German.
PMID: 6608288 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
10:
Related Articles, Links
Klin B, Uretzky G, Magora F.
Abstract
Transcutaneous electrical nerve stimulation (TENS) after open heart surgery.
J Cardiovasc Surg (Torino). 1984 Sep-Oct;25(5):445-8.
PMID: 6334086 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

I will provide the rest if necessary.

Skeptico replies to Cichorei Kano

Re: How interesting ... If accupuncture has no activity whatsoever, which scientifico-medical application do you have for people undergoing heart surgery with no other anesthesia, but accupuncture ?

Evidence for this please.

Re: Accupuncture has already been proven in the early 1980's to stimulate the physiological release of enkephalin and various endorphins from your own body, some of which are known to be 40-200 times more potent than morphin.

Releasing endorphins is not acupuncture. Sticking needles in people may release endorphins – big deal.

It seems that Cichorei Kano can’t provide evidence for his claim that heart surgery has been performed with no other anesthesia, but acupuncture. That is because this claim is absolutely false. Some have claimed that surgery has been performed using only acupuncture as an anesthetic, but such claims have never been supported. In fact, they are absurd, and certainly false.

Of course, I remain open to Cichorei Kano posting his evidence to prove me wrong.

Cichorei Kano, you are making the same mistakes that Cupo made in the comments above. Did you read his attempts to argue for acupuncture the same way you did? Cupo also posted a study that we showed to be fatally flawed. And he, despite numerous times of asking, failed to explain the study that was the subject of this post. So can you explain this study? Can you explain how acupuncture can be real if it makes no difference where the needles are placed?

Here is my review of the ten “studies” your Google search returned for you.

Item 1 – no abstract / can’t conclude anything.

Item 2 - Acupuncture anesthesia for open heart surgery: a report of 800 cases.

This test reports the utilization of acupuncture in combination with chemical anesthesia - so this isn’t a test of acupuncture is it? And it certainly does not show “people undergoing heart surgery with no other anesthesia, but accupuncture (sic)” as you claimed. Also there were no controls – no sham acupuncture, no chemical anesthesia only, no blinding. In other words – it shows nothing.

Item 3 – no abstract / can’t conclude anything - although your own summary says “acupuncture and intravenous anesthesia”, so it’s not a test of acupuncture, is it?

Item 4 – no abstract / can’t conclude anything - although your own summary says “under electro-acupuncture” – electrical shock is not acupuncture, so it’s not a test of acupuncture, is it?

Item 5 – no abstract / can’t conclude anything.

Item 6 – no abstract / can’t conclude anything, although acupuncture combined anesthesia sounds like real anesthetics are being used as well as acupuncture, so it’s not a test of acupuncture, is it?

Item 7 – no abstract / can’t conclude anything.

Item 8 – no abstract / can’t conclude anything.

Item 9 – no abstract / can’t conclude anything, although electrostimulation is not acupuncture, so it’s not a test of acupuncture, is it?

Item 10 - this one, which states

Transcutaneous electrical nerve stimulation (TENS) was administered….

Electrical nerve stimulation is not acupuncture. Providing mild electric shocks to the nerves may well deaden pain in some situations. In fact, I would be surprised if shocking the body had no effect. But it is not acupuncture.

You have made the same mistake that all dim witted proponents of acupuncture make when they post here, and it is getting beyond tedious. You have not understood the “studies” you reference. In fact, you have not read any of them. Rather, your Google search merely returned links to studies whose titles you liked. If you are going to post here again, I will insist you link to an actual study – abstract at a minimum, although preferably the full study – and an actual link. Make sure your study is not:

- Acupuncture combined with real medicine
- Electrical stimulation
- Unblinded
- With no controls
- One you haven’t read or cannot explain

Also, please explain the study that was the actual subject of the original post. Explain its results, if acupuncture is real.


Skeptico,

I'd actually be comfortable loosening your boundaries on what is and is not acupuncture. Many acupuncturists use electrical stimulation at acupuncture points. The key is, like using needles, is it the zap? or is it the zap at the correct point? I wouldn't really care if they used a needle, a zap, or a wet noodle as long as they are still claiming that there are specific acupuncture points.

Further have you seen the only good study to come out of NCCAM that both orac and Steven Novella (is that the same person?) reviewed?

All claims of the benefits of any woo should be put up against this. It shows the enormous effect of placebo.

oracs review
SBM review

Since sham acupuncture works so well in a comfortable setting, as does reiki and this zero balancing nonsense, perhaps this small effect, that seems only due to a doctor spending more time with a patient and helping them feel comfortable with the procedure, could be incorporated into the delivery of real medicine.

dammit... I thought I closed my italics

Re: Many acupuncturists use electrical stimulation at acupuncture points.

For this to be valid they’d have to show a difference between electrical stimulation at the real points and electrical stimulation at the sham points. To my knowledge this has never been done. In any case, it is not reported to have been done in the abstract to #10 above, or in the other “studies” Cichorei Kano linked.

(btw Orac and Novella are different people.)

You guys are writing that if endorphins are released by accupuncture, that such does not mean anything !

The reality is that indeed for various of the claimed cures of certain diseases with accupuncture, there is no evidence; so there is probably part fake. The fact that even if random needles are put in a person and there is a similar effect, does not prove that ... 'accupuncture' does not work, at the most it questions the existence of the meridian framework.

The anesthesiologist and pain-relieving effects of accupuncture, on the other hand are well describe and evidenced, irrespective of whether the entire meridian theory makes sense or not.

11:
Related Articles, Links
Lapeer GL.
No Abstract
High-intensity transcutaneous nerve stimulation at the Hoku acupuncture point for relief of muscular headache pain. Literature review and clinical trial.
Cranio. 1986 Apr;4(2):164-71. No abstract available.
PMID: 3486926 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
12:
Related Articles, Links
[No authors listed]
Abstract
Intracardiac operations with extracorporeal circulation under acupuncture anaesthesia.
Sci Sin. 1975 Mar-Apr;18(2):271-80.
PMID: 1162327 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
13:
Related Articles, Links
Li ZM.
No Abstract
[Pneumonectomy under acupuncture anesthesia]
Zhen Ci Yan Jiu. 1985;10(3):169-72. Chinese. No abstract available.
PMID: 3937623 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
14:
Related Articles, Links
Fischer MV, Raab P, von Reumont J.
Abstract
[Circulatory behavior under electrostimulation anesthesia (ESA)]
Anaesthesist. 1983 Dec;32(12):591-6. German.
PMID: 6608287 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
15:
Related Articles, Links
Chang RH, Wen KH.
No Abstract
[The effects of combined acupuncture anesthesia in gastrectomy]
Zhen Ci Yan Jiu. 1985;10(3):161-4. Chinese. No abstract available.
PMID: 3937621 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
16:
Related Articles, Links
Lu SN, Quan W.
No Abstract
Electro-acupuncture treatment for dysfunction syndrome of temporomandibular joint. Report of 23 cases.
J Tradit Chin Med. 1984 Jun;4(2):96. No abstract available.
PMID: 6333562 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
17:
Related Articles, Links
Tikhonova GP.
No Abstract
[Use of transcutaneous peripheral electrostimulation in anesthesiologic support of surgical operations]
Anesteziol Reanimatol. 1988 Nov-Dec;(6):43-5. Russian. No abstract available.
PMID: 3266721 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
18:
Related Articles, Links
Boros M, Matkó I, Kovács G, Tanos B, Tárnoky K.
No Abstract
[Use and effect of electro-acupuncture in anesthesia for heart surgery. Comparative clinical study]
Orv Hetil. 1977 Oct 30;118(44):2632-40. Hungarian. No abstract available.
PMID: 335325 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
19:
Related Articles, Links
Chen YG, Chen P, Lou HL, Li LQ, Chen DZ, Jiang LY.
No Abstract
[Clinical observation of gastrectomy under acupuncture anesthesia with small doses of fentanyl, droperidol]
Zhen Ci Yan Jiu. 1987;12(2):99-104. Chinese. No abstract available.
PMID: 3117423 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
20:
Related Articles, Links
Di Giacomo G, Müller H.
No Abstract
[Electro-stimulation-analgesia in 156 surgical operations]
Minerva Anestesiol. 1984 Jan-Feb;50(1-2):1-6. Italian. No abstract available.
PMID: 6610842 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Skeptico replies to Cichorei Kano

Re: You guys are writing that if endorphins are released by accupuncture, that such does not mean anything !

I never said it doesn’t mean anything. I said that release of endorphins is not acupuncture.

Re: The reality is that indeed for various of the claimed cures of certain diseases with accupuncture, there is no evidence; so there is probably part fake.

Remove the words “probably” and “part” and you are correct.

Re: The fact that even if random needles are put in a person and there is a similar effect, does not prove that ... 'accupuncture' does not work, at the most it questions the existence of the meridian framework.

Since the “meridian framework” as you put it is what acupuncture is, it most certainly does show that acupuncture does not work.

Did you not read what I wrote in the main post – and the link to Dr. Novella’s blog post? I explained the problem with your way of thinking. AS I WROTE, the real problem with believing in this “chi” and “meridians” nonsense is that it prevents anyone from discovering what (if anything) is really happening when someone receives acupuncture treatment. the fact that meridians and chi almost certainly do not exist, is the core problem with belief in acupuncture. Why will you not address this point?

Re: The anesthesiologist and pain-relieving effects of accupuncture, on the other hand are well describe and evidenced, irrespective of whether the entire meridian theory makes sense or not.

No they are not – studies show it’s mostly placebo.

I am not going to bother with your additional list of study titles you found on Google – studies that we both know you haven’t read. I already gutted your original ten studies and I’m not going to play the game of reading the next ten studies you find on Google, and then the next ten, etc etc. I told you before not to post studies without links, or of studies with no abstract, or that referred to electro-shock. Are you incapable of reading and responding to what is actually asked of you? And I note, STILL no backup for your absurd claim that surgery has been performed using only acupuncture as an anesthetic. Are you going to be honest and admit you can’t back up that claim? And if you must continue to post about acupuncture, please learn how to spell acupuncture.

I'm readindg all this thread, and I like it-Please, keep it up.

Thank you all, "both sides of the road".

Cheers,
Swap

I’m closing the comments to this post.

Supporters of acupuncture, such as Cupo and Cichorei Kano commenting above, all seem to miss the point in exactly the same way. Yes, we know that sticking needles in people can promote a placebo response with subjective maladies such as pain and nausea. We also know that sticking needles in people will elicit some brain activity that may be measured using technology such as fMRI. None of this means that acupuncture “works”. I’ve grown tired of explaining this over and over again to people who will just not consider the points raised. I am also tired of being presented with lists of studies supposedly showing acupuncture works, that the presenter has clearly just found with Google, based on what they think are promising study titles, but that they clearly have not read. Acupuncture proponents have had their chance in over seven months since I wrote this post (and in numerous other acupuncture posts before that) to refute the claims I make about acupuncture and/or to cite studies that actually show that acupuncture works. They have failed. Acupuncture is nothing but a highly complex, ritualized, placebo. Based on magical thinking, it promotes anti-science, and woo in general.

The comments to this entry are closed.

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