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March 09, 2008

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Whats really annoying is that the father himself, a neurologist, says himself that this is not about vaccines and autism.

I want to make it clear I am not anti–vaccine," he says. "Vaccines are one of the most important, if not the most important advance, in medicine in at least the past 100 years. But I don't think that vaccines should enjoy a sacred cow status, where if you attack them you are out of mainline medicine.

There is no medical treatment without risk. There is no action on the planet without risk. He was able to show a plausible link between the vaccine and this instance of someone with a genetic predisposition to problems, in fact this very thing could have happened if she had not gotten the vaccine and had gotten something else that challenged her immune system.

He points out in fact that with regard to scientific proof, and the proof in a courtroom, you are talking about apples and oranges.

"When you are talking about the courtroom versus science, the burden of proof is different,"

This is a pretty good summary.


John Best is still lurking. He was on RI or PZ's site recently. just a head's up. :-)

Hilarious... I was just browsing the Mercola site and thought I'd share something of an "alternative" suggestion there.... wow! the anti-vacc. crowd took great offense to any suggestion that Jenny Macarthy is anything but a nobel-prize-worthy hero. (Vomit in my mouth). I'm already a minus 12 in the "quack points" system... lol

Check it out.

http://v.mercola.com/blogs/public_blog/How-Jim-Carrey-and-Jenny-McCarthy-s-Son-Recovered-From-Autism--59199.aspx

"When the public trusts blindly, often what is most at risk is the truth."

http://www.909shot.com/myths.htm

Analysis of Vaccines Adverse events from the National Vaccine Information Center:

http://www.holyhormones.com/pdf/VAERS.pdf

CK, the 909shot website is not updated with recent or relevant information (especially if it goes against their philosophy).

Also, the VAERS database is of self-selected case reports. This is the lowest form of statistical sampling and should not even be mentioned as any kind of reliable source. This is especially relevant since there was an upsurge of reports after lawyers encouraged people to report every little thing. In fact, one fellow by the name of Laidler got into VAERS for claiming that vaccines turned him into a large green Hulk, and another fellow who was not even in the USA said the vaccines turned his daughter into Wonder Woman, see:
http://leftbrainrightbrain.co.uk/?p=342

What kind of silly website is "holyhormones" anyway?

Iv'e found many more points that call into question the whole 'vaccines are beneficial' line:

Typically the incidence of a disease was clearly declining before the vaccine for that disease was introduced. In England the incidence of polio had decreased by 82 % before the polio vaccine was introduced in 1956.

In 1975 Germany stopped requiring pertussis (whooping cough) vaccination.

Today less than 10 % of German children are vaccinated against pertussis. The number of cases of pertussis has steadily decreased even though far fewer children are receiving pertussis vaccine.

In 1986 there were 1300 cases of pertussis in Kansas and 90 % of these cases occurred in children who had been adequately vaccinated. Similar vaccine failures have been reported from Nova Scotia where pertussis continues to be occurring despite universal vaccination.

Pertussis remains endemic in the Netherlands where for more than 20 years 96 % of children have received 3 pertussis shots by age 12 months.

After institution of diphtheria vaccination in England and Wales in 1894 the number of deaths SA from diphtheria rose by 20 % in the subsequent 15 years.

Germany had compulsory vaccination in 1939. The rate of diphtheria spiraled to 150,000 cases that year whereas, Norway which did not have compulsory vaccination, had only 50 cases of diphtheria the same year.


Dr. W. Torch was able to document 12 deaths in infants which appeared within 3½ and 19 hours of a DPT immunization. He later reported 11 new cases of SIDS death and one near miss which had occurred within 24 hours of a DPT injection.

When he studied 70 cases of SIDS two thirds
of these victims had been vaccinated from one half day to 3 weeks prior to their deaths. None of these deaths was attributed to vaccines.

Vaccines are a sacred cow and nothing against them appears in the mass media because they are so profitable to pharmaceutical firms.

In the March 4, 1977 issue of Science Jonas and Darrell Salk warn, "Live virus vaccines against influenza or poliomyelitis may in each instance produce the disease it intended to prevent.

The live virus against measles and mumps may produce such side effects as encephalitis (brain damage).

The swine flu vaccine was administered to the American public even though there had never been a case of swine flu identified in a human. Farmers refused to use the vaccine because it killed too many animals. Within a few months of use in humans this vaccine caused many cases of serious nerve injury (Guillan Barre syndrome).

An article in the Washington Post on Jan. 26, 1988 mentioned that all cases of polio since 1979 had been caused by the polio vaccine with no known cases of polio from a wild strain since 1979.

References

de Melker HE, et al Pertussis in the Netherlands: an outbreak despite high levels of immunization with whole-cell vaccine Emerging Infectious Diseases 1997; 3(2): 175-8 Centers for Disease Control

Torch WS Diptheria-pertussis-tetanus (DPT) immunizations: a potential cause of the sudden infant death syndrome (SIDS) Neurology 1982; 32-4 A169 abstract.

Friedrich F. et al temporal association between the isolation of Sabin-related poliovirus vaccine strains and the Guillan-Barre syndrome Rev Inst Med Trop Sao Paulo 1996 Jan-Feb; 38(1):55-8


Mullins Eustace Murder by Injection pg 132 The National Council for Medical Research, P. O. Box 1105, Staunton, Virginia 24401

Iv'e found many more points that call into question the whole 'vaccines are beneficial' line:
I've found many more points that call into question the whole "CK is intelligent" line: first, your misplacement of the apostrophe in "I've."
Today less than 10 % of German children are vaccinated against pertussis. The number of cases of pertussis has steadily decreased even though far fewer children are receiving pertussis vaccine.
Ever hear of herd immunity?
In 1986 there were 1300 cases of pertussis in Kansas and 90 % of these cases occurred in children who had been adequately vaccinated. Similar vaccine failures have been reported from Nova Scotia where pertussis continues to be occurring despite universal vaccination.
Sources? Details? Or are we just meant to take your word? And why are you picking sources from over twenty years ago?
After institution of diphtheria vaccination in England and Wales in 1894 the number of deaths SA from diphtheria rose by 20 % in the subsequent 15 years.
Yes, and 1894 represented the very best in vaccination technology.
Germany had compulsory vaccination in 1939. The rate of diphtheria spiraled to 150,000 cases that year whereas, Norway which did not have compulsory vaccination, had only 50 cases of diphtheria the same year.
And how good were the vaccines in Nazi Germany? What was the rate in 1938? How did the population change? Did the post-WWI depression have an effect here that might not have been felt in Norway? What were the conditions like in Norway in 1939? Were people largely crowded together in poor urban centers, where we would expect more outbreaks of illnesses like diphtheria? Do you really think you can lie so easily with numbers on a skeptical blog?
Dr. W. Torch was able to document 12 deaths in infants which appeared within 3½ and 19 hours of a DPT immunization. He later reported 11 new cases of SIDS death and one near miss which had occurred within 24 hours of a DPT injection.
None of which even suggests causation. And it ignores the vastly humongous amounts of infants who don't suffer any ill effects following vaccination. Cherry-picking isn't helping your case any more than confusing correlation and causation is.
Vaccines are a sacred cow and nothing against them appears in the mass media because they are so profitable to pharmaceutical firms.
The media is saturated with anti-vaccination mumbo-jumbo. What isn't saturated with anti-vacc propaganda is the medical literature, because somehow you and your like-minded morons aren't able to actually back up your claims with anything but the barest and most cherry-picked circumstantial evidence. To actually deny that vaccines are beneficial at all, based on cherry-picked cases going back over a hundred years, is the height of arrogant stupidity. Tell me, CK, did smallpox just go away on its own? Why is it that as more people buy into the anti-vax propaganda and prevent their children from being vaccinated, the measles and whooping cough rates begin going up?
When he studied 70 cases of SIDS two thirds of these victims had been vaccinated from one half day to 3 weeks prior to their deaths. None of these deaths was attributed to vaccines.
For obvious reasons. I guarantee you that each and every one of those children (more than 2/3, certainly) also had a bowel movement within three weeks of their deaths; should we therefore conclude that pooping is fatal? Why, they all either ingested breast milk or formula, perhaps those are all contaminated! Maybe baby clothes and cribs cause SIDS!

Or maybe SIDS happened within 3 weeks of these infants' vaccinations because both SIDS and vaccinations tend to happen in infancy. Moreover, tests have been done to actually find out if there's a connection: there isn't. In fact, one report suggests that vaccines may have a preventative effect on SIDS.

In the March 4, 1977 issue of Science Jonas and Darrell Salk warn, "Live virus vaccines against influenza or poliomyelitis may in each instance produce the disease it intended to prevent.
Yes, that's certainly a risk. It turns out to happen in a very small percentage of cases (about 1 in 750,000 for polio) and is most common in adults receiving the vaccine, and children with immune disorders. It's a calculated risk, and it's one of the reasons that the U.S. uses only inactivated polio vaccines.

However, one's chances of developing polio or influenza are much greater from being unvaccinated than from being vaccinated. What you're suggesting is that no one should wear seatbelts because of the miniscule few who suffer seatbelt-related injuries.

The swine flu vaccine was administered to the American public even though there had never been a case of swine flu identified in a human.
Yes, there was a scare. It had consequences. It was quickly corrected, but not quickly enough. And it does absolutely nothing to indict the proper use of vaccines, which has a clear value that is supported by all the available evidence. The lesson of the swine flu scare is not "vaccines are dangerous" but "don't rush to action without good evidence."
An article in the Washington Post on Jan. 26, 1988 mentioned that all cases of polio since 1979 had been caused by the polio vaccine with no known cases of polio from a wild strain since 1979.
The Washington Post is not a scientific journal. As near as I can tell from cursory research, the article is wrong (assuming you're relating its contents accurately); the virus wasn't even eliminated in the Americas until six years later, and still exists in various African and Asian countries, largely due to lack of vaccination.

Incidentally, in checking your sources, I came up with this interesting article which cited your "Pertussis in the Netherlands" source. Turns out that the reason for the endemic Pertussis may be because the bacteria have adapted to the vaccine. Evolution keeps on truckin'.

CK said :

"When the public trusts blindly, often what is most at risk is the truth."

Tell me. When you were blindly trusting the sources that Tom eviscerated, what happened to the truth?

What makes your sources more reliable than ours?

Vaccines are a sacred cow and nothing against them appears in the mass media because they are so profitable to pharmaceutical firms.

Really? I mean, seriously, you are going to really make that claim?

It was obvious you don't read much, but damn...

When he studied 70 cases of SIDS two thirds of these victims had been vaccinated from one half day to 3 weeks prior to their deaths. None of these deaths was attributed to vaccines.

The reason this is idiotic is not because its a causation/correlation fallacy. Its because despite pretty consistent vaccination coverage for the last 20 years The rate of SIDS has dropped to 1/3 of its rate in 1980 (1/4 in CA). clearly there is no relation between vaccination and SIDS. SIDS awareness and understands dropped those rates.


Maybe CK should read some studies that actually address this.


argh, that was me

-tech (why doesn't typepad work for me consistently?)

A vaccine is a biological preparation which is used to establish or improve immunity to a particular disease. Vaccines can be prophylactic or therapeutic.
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