Acupuncture does not cut blood pressure

Once again, I had to change the headline. The BBC headline says: Acupuncture ‘cuts blood pressure’. I added a "does not" because their article says:

Acupuncture combined with electronic stimulation can lower high blood pressure, US researchers say.

(My bold.)

Get that? Acupuncture combined with electronic stimulation. Later the article says:

When the acupuncture was applied on its own, it had no effect on blood pressure.

OK, lets get something straight here. Acupuncture is the manipulation of “qi” (oddly, pronounced “Chi”) by inserting needles at key points in 12 “meridians”.  That's what it is.  So despite what these testers have arbitrarily decided to call it, running electrical current through needles is not acupuncture. The ancient Chinese, who supposedly dreamed all this up, had no clue what electricity was, and so certainly had no idea it might be used therapeutically. 

Unfortunately, proponents of acupuncture (remember, that’s the thing with the “qi” and the magic needles), will falsely claim this study shows acupuncture works. It doesn’t, since they specifically say: when the acupuncture was applied on its own, it had no effect on blood pressure..

Furthermore, I note that Dr Longhurst of the study team said:

…acupuncture triggered the release of chemicals in the brain that in turn dampened the response of the cardiovascular system.

As I wrote before, this is just an assumption. He can’t possibly know this from the study, the way it is described in the BBC article.

The real conclusion of this study is that acupuncture is not even a placebo.

Comments

[lambic]

Damn, you beat me to it. I just blogged about this article for my Skeptics' Circle submission. I guess it was an easy target :)

[Skeptico]

Great minds...

[Macgrath]

Acupuncture combined with electronic stimulation can lower rates by as much as 50 percent, according to UCI study -

Acupuncture treatments using low levels of electrical stimulation can lower elevations in blood pressure by as much as 50 percent, researchers at the Susan Samueli Center for Integrative Medicine at UC Irvine have found.

In tests on rats, the researchers found that electroacupuncture treatments provided temporary relief from the conditions that raise blood pressure during hypertensive states. Such treatments, they believe, potentially can become part of a therapeutic regimen for long-term care of hypertension and other cardiovascular ailments in people.

[Skeptico]

Go back and read my article: “electronic stimulation” is NOT acupuncture. (Rolls eyes.)

I have never ever seen such negative crap in all my life. Get a life.

[Skeptico]

Wow, what a brilliant refutation of my 280 word article. What can I say in the face of such a brilliant word-smithing? You’ve convinced me – acupuncture works, despite all the evidence that it’s nothing more than placebo. Your “negative crap” comment totally refutes all the studies. Thank you for opening my eyes.

[BronzeDog]

So... the guy comes in, complains about your "negativity", and doesn't offer anything constructive, whereas your article states what's wrong with this acupuncture test: It's not testing acupuncture.

Riiiiight.

Oh, and anonymous: One of the most important parts about coming up with new ideas is shooting down the bad ones if they fail tests. A lot of newagers remind me of bureaucrats: They're stuck in an old, non-functioning system, convinced they're making progress based on arbitrary scales, rather than measuring against reality.

[Rockstar]

word-smithing

Skeptico:

LOL, man...just LOL...

[BronzeDog]

Here's a bit more: Anonymous: Why don't to try opening your mind to the possibility you could be wrong?

All it takes to convince me I'm wrong is a positive, replicable, double-blind control test. What would it take to convince you that you're wrong?

[Susan R]

Researchers says that electroacupuncture treatments provided temporary relief from the conditions that raise blood pressure during hypertensive states.

[BronzeDog]

Can you give us a reference to the study those researchers carried out, Susan? Direct link or volume/issue/page numbers would be wonderful. Thanks.

[Skeptico]

Susan:

"Electroacupuncture" is not acupuncture – I covered this in my many acupuncture articles.

[Diathermic]

Skeptico, as well as his disciple, Bronze Hack, why do you guys even bother? You call yourselves students of science and advocate being atheists, but it is quite obvious that you have your own idols of worship. Such as the ever contemptuous of life itself, Penn and the apoplectic Teller. As well as your King of Kings, the de-licensed, Dr. Stephen Barrett. Who, by the way, needs a new toupee. I guess allopathy has not come up with a good “cure” for hair lose? But they sure know how to kill people. You know that, right? They are the biggest culprits of iatrogenic deaths. 225,000 deaths caused annually by allopathic medical care. I could break it down for you, but why bother? You guys are hack, pop philosopher kings. Your art of debate is churlish at best. Patting your selves on the back for being the philistines that you really are. Congratulations. I think FOX News could use you guys for something? Maybe in the back room after hours?

[BronzeDog]

Such as the ever contemptuous of life itself, Penn and the apoplectic Teller.

I don't worship idols. Stop changing the subject to the arguers. Stop running away from the arguments. I haven't had the pleasure of watching Penn & Teller's show at all.

As well as your King of Kings, the de-licensed, Dr. Stephen Barrett.

Stop changing the subject. Stop running away from the arguments. And don't lie: He's retired, not de-licensed. He's still in good standing, and can renew his license at any time.

I guess allopathy has not come up with a good “cure” for hair lose?

Of course not. Allopathy was largely abandoned centuries ago. We make fun of allopathy. What do you think those "leech" jokes are about?

But they sure know how to kill people. You know that, right? They are the biggest culprits of iatrogenic deaths. 225,000 deaths caused annually by allopathic medical care.

Evidence, please? How do I know you didn't pluck that number out of thin air?

Also: I suspect you're trying to change the subject to malpratice. If I negligently drove my car into a telephone pole, would I blame the steering mechanism?

Your art of debate is churlish at best.

I suppose you consider pulling numbers out of your back pocket and baseless accusations. Just like a politician.

Congratulations. I think FOX News could use you guys for something? Maybe in the back room after hours?

I don't mean to get political, but Fox News is EEEEE-VILLE... At least from the baseless accusations and fabricated data I've seen their ilk make up to hand-wave away their detractors. Kind of like you.

[Diathermic]

Hey Bronze, no idols? Try your ego.

[BronzeDog]

What ego? I'm willing to be convinced of my wrongness by double-blind control studies. I'm fully aware of my fallability, as well of the fallability of all human beings, which is why I have that contingency planned for. If I'm wrong, it only takes one tiny thing for me to find out.

What would it take for you to be convinced of your wrongness, just in case you are wrong?

Mr.Stephen Barrett is not in "good standing". But you can let him know about these numbers you wanted me to find for you about iatrogenic deaths; form the Journal of the American Medical Association 2000 p.483-485, "of these 225,00 annual iatrogenic dealths, 12,000 are caused by unnecessary surgery, 7,000 by medication errors, 20,000 from other errors in hospitals, 80,000 from hospital-caused infections, and 106,000 caused by adverse effects of legally administered drugs in hospitals."

[Diathermic]

sorry, that was me above...

[BronzeDog]

[Completely off-topic]

Mr.Stephen Barrett is not in "good standing".

If Dr. Barrett were relevant to the argument, I'd as for evidence of his de-licensing. But that's a smokescreen to change the subject to the arguers, and away from the arguments, again.

12,000 are caused by unnecessary surgery

Malpractice. Don't change the subject.

7,000 by medication errors

Malpractice. Don't change the subject.

20,000 from other errors in hospitals

Malpractice. Don't change the subject.

80,000 from hospital-caused infections

That's why I like to push for better sterilization standards. But since that's not relevant to the topic of whether or not accupunture works... Don't change the subject.

106,000 caused by adverse effects of legally administered drugs in hospitals.

A little more detail would be nice.

[/Completely off topic]

What would it take for you to be convinced of your wrongness, just in case you are wrong about acupunture?

[Diathermic]

No problem… if acupuncture, allopathy, naturopathy, genomic medicine, and all the rest, were proven to me that they do not work and or that they are unscientific, I would change my views. But the question is why do you and skeptico need to appease your egos by proving that your views are right or to make me "convinced of" my "wrongness"? I will end this by saying, if you need to put me down or what I believe in to make yourselves feel good as a human being, then, that is fine with me. I just want you guys to be happy.

[Skeptico]

After all that bluster and nastiness, still no evidence acupuncture works. And acupuncture is the subject of this thread. Stick to the topic please. Explain what is wrong with the conclusions I drew in my article. And please show your work.

[Cos]

Diathermic, what wouldn't you try a traditional Ancient Egyptian medicine, like the shit of hippotamus to cure cold or licking the skin of dead lizards to get rid of fever?
Doesn't sound right? Oh, come on, get an on-line Ph.D from a degree mill first and start up your own Scathotherapy International, if you like. Check with Doreen Virtue - You are set for success!

A friend of mine has recently come back in home from Bali where he bought an "acupuncture electric machine" on a flee market. The thing seems to work as long as you belive it does "acupuncture".
Just imagine you called acupuncture a "niuh-niuh-niuh" or reiki a "glju-glju-glju" - how many patients ready to pay you hundreds of $ would you get?
Seems like you give a dog a bad name and you can hang it.
Give a good one, and start raking in millions. Call this number in Bali now!

[Prometheus]

Diathermic is using an absolutely classic tactic. Rather than compare acupuncture to "real" medicine (sorry, but "allopathy" died out with cupping - oops, that's part of "alternative" medicine, now!), Diathermic is comparing "real" medicine to "ideal" medicine (what modern medicine would be if all of its practitioners were infallible and had utterly complete and accurate diagnostic information).

That may be a useful philosophical exercise or a way to vent one's spleen, but it doesn't advance the validity or utility of acupuncture one bit. Try this - can you demonstrate (as opposed to assert) that acupuncture (or whatever "alt" therapy you like) is better than the current best "real" medicine therapy for hypertension in terms of:

[1] Efficacy (in other words, does it work? As well, as long, as completely?)

[2] Side effects (acupuncture should have it there, right?)

[3] Morbidity and mortality - from both the treatment and the disorder (hypertension)

[4] Patient satisfaction and compliance (do people continue their therapy or do they eventually quit?)

[5] Cost - not just the cost of the treatment, but the cost of treating any side effects AND the cost of treating the results of treatment failures (stroke, kidney failure, etc.)

That's what "real" therapies have to do before they get accepted - why shouldn't acupuncture have to do the same?

Eagerly waiting illumination.

Prometheus

[Cos]

Prometheus

For your information:
In the early 1990s, the cost of a "Master Course in Reiki" here in Australia was around AUD16.000! I hear some people had to sell and move their houses to pay the fee and become Reiki Masters!
The fee seems to have dropped by 10 times since then, although the issue stays open:
If you had to cash out that much and then realized Reiki didn't work (i.e $16.000 gone down the toilet or, in fact, into the smart fellas' pockets) you'll have to be an idiot to admit that publicly and lose your money, your friends' and your own self-esteem forever.
So, do as the others do: just set up a Reiki clinic, look dead serious when you do "lay-on of hands" and chase an easy buck out of it.
The name of the game: keep the ball rolling....

[anxiety]

Wow great to have red hot debate, nice, thumbs up guys. wel i've gone through all your comments specially the one susan had made, sound so hilarious.:P