Drinking the anti-vax Kool-Aid

Some people never get it. Despite being put straight by Dr. Sanjay Gupta five weeks ago, Bill Maher still doesn’t get vaccines. Just listen to this piece of stupidity from him tonight on Larry King tonight (all bold mine):

MAHER: I'm not into western medicine. That to me is a complete scare tactic. It just shows you, you can...

KING: You mean you don't get a -- you don't get a flu shot?

MAHER: A flu shot is the worst thing you can do.

KING: Why? MAHER: Because it's got -- it's got mercury.

KING: It prevents flu.

MAHER: It doesn't prevent. First of all, that's...

KING: I haven't had the flu in 25 years since I've been taking a flu shot.

MAHER: Well, I hate to tell you, Larry, but if you have a flu shot for more than five years in a row, there's ten times the likelihood that you'll get Alzheimer's disease. I would stop getting your...

KING: What did you say?

MAHER: That went better in rehearsal but it was still good. Absolutely, no the defense against disease is to have a strong immune system. A flu shot just compromises your immune system.

First – he’s really been drinking the anti-vax Kool Aid. This “vaccines compromise the immune system” is just nonsense. Idiocy. Vaccines train the immune system so they are ready if the real disease strikes.

Second – where does he get the data that says five flu shots makes it ten times more likely that you'll get Alzheimer's disease? That’s a very specific number. What study could this have come from? He didn’t just make it up did he? Nah, surely not.

Then, get this about the polio vaccine – that has virtually wiped out polio from the world:

KING: Polio was eliminated.

MAHER: Yes but, you know, there are many books out that will -- that will -- and I'm not well enough versed on it to talk about it that will indicate that there are other reasons why it was.

And a lot of diseases that have been they say, whoa, this was eliminated because of a vaccine, they find out well no actually the country got toilets and that's what happened.

This idea that better hygiene and sanitation meant that diseases had already begun to disappear before vaccines were introduced, is just more anti-vax nonsense. Yes, better sanitation helped, but vaccines were still the reason most diseases have gone away. I suppose we should be grateful Maher doesn’t want any kids – we don’t want any more unvaccinated kids in the country.

I decided to email bill and ask about that ten times figure:

Bill:

On Larry King tonight you said “if you have a flu shot for more than five years in a row, there's ten times the likelihood that you'll get Alzheimer's disease”. Can you please provide the source for that statement? I’m ideally looking for a citation in a peer reviewed scientific journal, but I’d be interested in any source you have.

Unless there is something to back it up, your comment would also seem like a scare tactic.

I’ll let you know if he replies.

Of course, you could also Email Bill and ask him where he gets his information from. If you wanted.

Comments

[LBBP]

It is odd how people with good skeptical values on some topics can be so off base on others.

Takes all kinds I guess.

[Spacefluffer]

I'd also like a reference for this one:

"Thousands of people die from aspirin every year."

Any ideas?!?

[woly]

Hey skeptico,

Did a quick google, found this.

http://www.mercola.com/2002/aug/14/alzheimers_eating.htm

Apparently Hugh Fudenberg came up with these figures.

[Skeptico]

Woly:

Thanks for finding that reference – obviously Maher didn’t reply. Of course there is no study to support the claim, just this:

Information from Dr. Hugh Fudenberg came from transcribed notes of Dr. Fudenberg's speech at the NVIC International Vaccine Conference, Arlington, VA September, 1997.

This quote is repeated verbatim on anti-vax sites too numerous to list. But no studies, no one else supporting the “10 times” number and nothing new since 1997. Pretty typical of the anti-vax kool-aid sites Maher has been taken in by.

Btw, Fudenberg is not “the world's leading immunogeneticist” as claimed. Although he was Wakefield’s">http://briandeer.com/wakefield/biotherapy-paper.htm">Wakefield’s collaborator:

Hugh Fudenberg has a unique position in the MMR controversy, having claimed in the 1980s that the vaccine was linked with autism. This paper, presented at a symposium on transfer factor in Bologna in June 1995, and published in the fringe journal Biotherapy (now discontinued), asserts that 15 of 40 autistic children developed autism "within a week" of an MMR shot, and goes on to claim that Fudenberg healed children, with a quarter "fully normalised".

Not that this necessarily means he is wrong. But I think we need replicated studies to back up his claim.

[Joseph O'Donnell]

Just to point out for the sake of completion, the whole argument that polio was exterminated by sanitation isn't exactly true. One of the main theories about why polio suddenly became a killer and had a dramatic increase in fatal cases was sanitation. The concept is that with improved sanitation less people ended up exposed to polio and there was as a result, less people that had an immunological memory to the disease. When they got exposed to polio later in life and without having seen it before, they advanced to a more severe disease rather than getting a milder infection.

Of course, the anti-vaxers just pick and choose data to suit them (like any group of cranks). Their explanations for how diseases were 'wiped out' such as sanitation do not apply to areas such as the third world. Of course, not that they care about having to have actual theories that explain all of the facts appropriately.

[medical student]

"We must admit that we have never fought the homeopath or the naturopath on matters of principle or science. We fought him because he came into our community and got the business."
---- Dr.J.N. McCormack, AMA 1903

Hello. I am a medical student at Harvard. After 3 years here, I must say that the teachers in this medical department/school are a joke. Even more of a joke then your web page. Your “science” is not science. Do you even know the history of what being a scientist means? Are you a doctor or scientist yourself? You are clinging to an out dated 20th century idea of what a “doctor” should be. You sound like your hero “DR” Morris Fishbein, a true AMA hack job. Why not compose a story about him? Your ideas that mind and body are divorced are vile and pernicious.

The true doctors of today believe that a civilization that conserves is one that will decay because it is afraid of going forward and attributes more importance to memory and ego than the future. The strongest civilizations are those without memory-those capable of complete forgetfulness. They are strong enough to destroy because they know they can replace what is destroyed. Today, our old school, doctors who smoke, eat like pigs, think genomic medicine is the only answer (genomics is only 5% to 7% of the cause of disease), and are un healthy allopaths, are not strong; it shows clear signs of withering.

The more I grow, the more I detach myself from other orthodox doctors and medical students, not only from the distance past but also from recent past and even from the present. Medical school has forced me to absorb a great deal of history, so much so, in fact, that history and the precious AMA seems more than ever to me a great burden. In my opinion we must get rid of it once and for all. Or start over again.

It would be great for you to compose a piece on why, ,today, it only takes the FDA/AMA 3 months, maximum, to approve a new drug. Funny, they have never approved a nontoxic agent or one that was not patented by a major pharmaceutical company. How quaint. I wonder if that would count as quackery. No, better yet, how about angioplasty and bypass sugery? And we cannot forget about radiation. Talk about true quake job procedures.

It is all about fear. Your days of allopathic “heroic medicine” are over. This form of medicine is not based on science. To use a toxic agent to “drive out disease” is truly living on false hopes. Funny, I don’t see any writings on your site about pharmachogenetics. I truly applaud allopathy for this promising path. But, it is a path that the naturopathic doctor has talked about from the beginnings of their practice. Go figure.....

[BronzeDog]

#1: I don't care about what the FDA/AMA thinks. I only care about the evidence, primarily in the form of double-blind controlled studies. They're the best method I know of to determine the efficacy of a treatment. If you've got something better, please enlighten me. Please don't use thinly veiled appeals to motivation, especially since doing so often involves double-standards.

#2: "Toxic" is a relative term: Everything is toxic if you get too much, including water and oxygen. "Toxic" is a word loved by scaremongers, and because anything can be toxic, anything can be made to look scary to the masses who don't look at the science.

#3: Allopathy is dead: It died over a century ago, and it's routine to mock quackery by comparing it to allopathy. That's what all those leech jokes are.

#4: Naturopaths, homeopaths, and so forth are usually the sorts clinging to the failures of the past: No matter what the evidence says, they just tow the quackery industry lines. Skeptics will change as quickly as you can perform and independently replicate good results. They give a prize for that sort of thing: The Nobel prize. We love being proven wrong. Please, don't compare yourself to Galileo, unless you decide to act like Galileo: Collect evidence. (Anecdotes don't count. It should be obvious why.)

#5: Evidence-based medicine works. We don't always understand the reasons, but results are results, and the data shows results.

#6: Vaccines don't work by using "a toxic agent to “drive out disease”". They work by introducing an incomplete, non-threatening pathogen, which the immune system responds to as if it were a real one. This creates all the appropriate antibodies and so forth. It trains your immune system for a potential infection, not drive out an existing one. You were supposed to have learned this in the sixth grade. I did. Besides, even if all that wasn't true or cogent, vaccines would still be a good idea because we know they get results.

[Mark Willner PHD]

Comment deleted by Skeptico due to troll-like behavior – specifically use of sock puppets.

[Skeptico]

Bronze Dog:

Good summary – thanks. If “medical student” or his sock puppet “Dr.Max McCullen immunologist” really was either a medical student or an immunologist, he would know that. I suspect he is neither.

[Skeptico]

General note to everyone

“John Haluska”, “medical student”, “Dr.Max McCullen immunologist” and “Mark Willner PHD” are one and the same person apparently posting from IP 172.165.0.72 in or around Washington DC. Please do not respond to this obvious troll whose IP has now been banned.

[BronzeDog]

You're welcome. I responded to the first two I saw, since, in my view, two looooong comments don't make a troll, but apparently he was busier than I expected.

Really annoyed by the FDA/AMA red herrings. I don't care much about them until I vote or do anything else during my rare political times.

Small side note: I joined up with Rockstar Ramblings. I might mention this guy in a post or something. I'll be sure to clear it with the others before I invite a potentially huge source of spam.

[Philip F. Incao M.D.]

Comment deleted by Skeptico

Reason:

Same sock-puppet troll as yesterday, logged in with AOL with new IP.

Listen dickhead – this is not your private site. If you want to have your screed on the internet get your own blog.

Unfortunately, thanks to this idiot, I am having to turn comment moderation on.

[Philip F. Incao M.D.]

Comment deleted by Skeptico

Reason:

Same sock-puppet troll as yesterday, logged in with AOL with new IP.

Listen dickhead – this is not your private site. If you want to have your screed on the internet get your own blog.

Unfortunately, thanks to this idiot, I am having to turn comment moderation on.

[BronzeDog]

He just won't give up, will he?

Let me guess: The new spam contained lots of FDA/AMA hate, despite the fact that those organizations are irrelevant to the question of whether or not vaccines are safe and effective.

[HCN]

You are not the first. It happened at Oracknows (but that was because some wingnut was posting personal addresses of someone he thought was Orac, but it was not), and at Black Triangle:
http://www.blacktriangle.org/blog/?p=1219

[Prometheus]

The whole AMA-based conspiracy thing loses whatever credibility it might have had when you discover that only 18% of American physicians are members of the AMA. Hard to control medical practices with only 18% of the population.

Besides, my experiences with physicians has shown me that they aren't particularly good "followers". Running a tight market-control conspiracy with physicians would be harder than herding cats.

Prometheus.

[DocMartyn]

The most recent study on the effects of vaccines on the onset of Alzheimers is
CMAJ. 2002 Jul 9;167(1):13.
"Past exposure to vaccines and subsequent risk of Alzheimer's disease."

Verreault R, Laurin D, Lindsay J, De Serres G.

They found:-

ESULTS: Of the 4392 eligible subjects who were cognitively unimpaired and for whom vaccine information was available at baseline (in 1991-1992) and who completed follow-up 5 years later (in 1996-1997), 527 were diagnosed as having cognitive impairment or dementia other than Alzheimer's disease and were excluded from these analyses. Of the remaining subjects, 3682 were cognitively unimpaired at follow-up and 183 were newly diagnosed as having Alzheimer's disease. After adjustment for age, sex and education, past exposure to vaccines against diphtheria or tetanus, poliomyelitis and influenza was associated with lower risk for Alzheimer's disease (odds ratio [OR] 0.41, 95% confidence interval [CI] 0.27-0.62; OR 0.60, 95% CI 0.37-0.99; and OR 0.75, 95% CI 0.54-1.04 respectively) than no exposure to these vaccines.
INTERPRETATION: Past exposure to vaccines against diphtheria or tetanus, poliomyelitis and influenza may protect against subsequent development of Alzheimer's disease.

I have never come across any data supporting the hypothesis that Flu shots increase the probability of Alzheimers. I will have a little look later when I have some time.

[John A. Mercer]

You're mistaken about sanitation having helped in the case of polio, because it hurt far more. Polio was always endemic, it's just that the earlier in life infection occurs, the more likely it is to by asymptomatic. Sanitation moved those infections to later in life.

[Skeptico]

DocMartyn:

Do you want to email Bill Mayer with the good news?

[DocMartyn]

I am a biochemist/neurochemist more interested in the role of oxidative/nitrosative stress and mitochondria in neuropathologies, including Alzheimers, rather than an immunologist.
I checked out Dr. Hugh H. Fudenberg, he has a lot of publications, but only 14 hits in Alzheimers, only three of those were real data sets/peer reviewed type publications.
This guy is not at all a leading expert on Alzheimers, mor has he a track record of original research in the field.
There is a lot of interest in vaccines in Alzheimers, only the other way around. In amyloid gene carrying transgenic mice, it was found that vaccination of the mice with Amyloid, cleared the amyloid plaques in the mice brains and appeared to "cure" them. It was tried on a woman in the UK, and was a disaster (her immune system ate her brain). However, a lot of people think that vaccination of Alzheimers patients will clear their plaques, and restore them to something close to normal.
As I say, if I get time tomorrow I will have a poke around the data bases and see what I can dig up. I have never come across this type of scare story, but I have heard a few.

[slavo]

My own experience from time i quit eating poison which doctors prescribed to me:
1.I had asthma - cured TOTALLY by breathing exercises - natural method from Dr.Buteyko - costs nothing (doctors don't want you to know) - I have it on paper, you should've seen doctors face when i once turned up completely healthy - just to let you know guys, this method of healing was published 25 years ago in Medical Journals with very high (96%) of extreme help. But this would mean that corporations will lose 100 bucks for asthma spray per month for each sick person.
2.Sinutidis with chronic teeth pain - cured with cold showers + extract from hot pepper (now known as Sinus Buster) - go and check out eBay for reviews - natural product NOT approved by FDA
3.Girlfriend had often Urinary Tract Infection - cured by natural sugar from cranberries called D-Mannose - 2 days and infection GONE FOREVER. Everytime she feels some small pain, she just drinks it diluted in water and she doesnt get sick. This thing after years got into "official" market since it helps so much that women in europe quit visiting doctors , which only gave em antibiotics (and these NEVER help in UTI, they just make disease less painful and longer).
The guy from Harvard is right, medicine is now corporate business. And you guys talking about "safe doses" of mercury are nothing but their assets.
Corporations always argue like you did to this medical student - you repsond only on 10% of his comments and try to ridicule him.
And stop this BS about safe mercury dosage - there is NO SAFE limit. If you talk about mercury in fish - that is different and everyone who uses this argument shows complete lack of knowledge.
Natural products contain other enzymes which help body to get rid of toxic substances. But corporations never mention that. Example: nutrasweet aka aspartame (sweetener) in 20 minutes decays in body to formaldehyde and methanol - methanol is highly toxic. Then the all-knowing CocaCola doctors came with argument that in juice there are also relatively high levels of methanol. Somehow they forgot to mention, that they contain also an enzyme called pectine which neutralizes the methanol and you WONT find this enzyme in sweetener.

This site is not meant to be objective.

[slavo]

and one more comment - what you forgot to reply on student from Harvard:
that doctors who teach are NOT healthy - how can somebody who is sick teach you to be healthy? ALL healthy people which I know rejected modern medicine.

[BronzeDog]

Slavo, I doubt your objectivity towards those anecdotes. What measures were taken to control against other explanations?

The guy from Harvard is right, medicine is now corporate business.

Everything's a corporate business. Try criticising the evidence about evidence-based medicine. It'll get you a lot farther with us than the "Obtain Disapproval" technique of propaganda generation.

And stop this BS about safe mercury dosage - there is NO SAFE limit. If you talk about mercury in fish - that is different and everyone who uses this argument shows complete lack of knowledge.

I'm guessing you're saying that a single mercury ion is dangerous. Funny.

Natural products contain other enzymes which help body to get rid of toxic substances.

Evidence, please? Oh, and how do the enzymes survive digestion? I'm not taking your word for it.

Example: nutrasweet aka aspartame (sweetener) in 20 minutes decays in body to formaldehyde and methanol - methanol is highly toxic.

Again, evidence, please? I'm not taking your word for it.

Then the all-knowing CocaCola doctors...

Stop right there with your enthymene straw man. We don't worship doctors. Just the opposite: We deal with evidence, which requires questioning. Doctors and scientists do their research specifically by questioning their knowledge (specifically by attempting to falsify their hypotheses). Quacks don't: They assume they're right, and rationalize away any failure.

[slavo]

#2: "Toxic" is a relative term: Please tell us about the safe amounts of mercury or sodium fluoride?
#3: Allopathy is dead: Maybe in your dreams :))) Or in USA - here in Europe each year more people turn to natural stuff - chect out the health of ppl in Europe and in USA.
#4: Naturopaths, homeopaths, and so forth are usually the sorts clinging to the failures of the past: No matter what the evidence says, they just tow the quackery industry lines. Skeptics will change as quickly as you can perform and independently replicate good results. They give a prize for that sort of thing: The Nobel prize.: thats so cool argument- the Nobel Prize! - why don't you tell us about the guy who got the Nobel Prize for lobotomy?

#5: Evidence-based medicine works: DDT is safe - remember?

Such arguments you can presnt in court in some banana republic :))) They will laugh at you there as well probably

[BronzeDog]

that doctors who teach are NOT healthy - how can somebody who is sick teach you to be healthy?

People aren't responsible for all their health problems. Besides, we learn from, you know, evidence. Doctors are just people in the business of collecting it. If you see a flaw in that evidence, please point it out.

ALL healthy people which I know rejected modern medicine.

Funny, for me, it's the exact opposite: The few alternative medicine I know tend to have very bad luck, like that one woman who died of gangrene because she didn't follow the evidence we have on living with diabetes. If she lived, she'd have one less leg.

[BronzeDog]

#3: Allopathy is dead: Maybe in your dreams :))) Or in USA - here in Europe each year more people turn to natural stuff - chect out the health of ppl in Europe and in USA.

You mean there are people still using leeches over there?

Please inform me about the health differences. And show me a proper study on that "natural stuff" you're talking about.

The Nobel prize.: thats so cool argument- the Nobel Prize! - why don't you tell us about the guy who got the Nobel Prize for lobotomy?

You seem to know more about it. Please inform us. And, of course, even if you do, you're still missing the point.

#5: Evidence-based medicine works: DDT is safe - remember?

Funny, I don't recall evidence-based medicine ever saying that. The closest I've heard was that it wasn't as dangerous as people say.

Such arguments you can presnt in court in some banana republic :))) They will laugh at you there as well probably

Right, because we all know courts take people like you at their word.

[slavo]

1.Example: Breathing exercises are not a corporate business - your argument - refuted.

2. You have evidence in my post - Natural products such as juice contain pectine which neutralizes methanol.

3.Yes - single mercury ion is dangerous without body having an enzyme to neutralize it.

4. Asparthame decay into formaldehyde and methanol you can get even from CocaCola itself.

Find it out for yourself, cuz you prolly drink it too much, since you havent read my post properly :)))

[BronzeDog]

1.Example: Breathing exercises are not a corporate business - your argument - refuted.

I wouldn't be so sure. And, of course, missing my point.

2. You have evidence in my post - Natural products such as juice contain pectine which neutralizes methanol.

So... Your evidence is your word for it?

3.Yes - single mercury ion is dangerous without body having an enzyme to neutralize it.

Funny. It's a wonder people aren't dead yet, since single ions can have such devastating effects.

4. Asparthame decay into formaldehyde and methanol you can get even from CocaCola itself.

Again, evidence, please?

Find it out for yourself, cuz you prolly drink it too much, since you havent read my post properly :)))

Then please, dumb it down for me.

[slavo]

blaaaah the woman with gangrene is extreme example. For cases like broken leg, blood poisoning, - i.e. pathological cases - the medicine works. Im talking about chronic illnesses, which give to modern medicine the biggest amount of money.

DDT - i dont remeber exactly how it was - what does it make the difference for people if doctors say - it is not very dangerous - you CAN be exposed to it , or by saying it is safe? Catch my drift?

About natural stuff - i gave you 3 examples, read properly please - Buteyko's method, Sinusitis, UTI - all 3 chronic diseases. Buteykos method was published 25 years ago with 96% improvement, SinusBuster - check out user reviews on eBay, UTI- D-Mannose - the only one study shows that it helps in 100% cases when infection is due to bacteria named E.coli (responsible for 90% of UTI's).

These are the only problems i encountered in my life - after successful asthma recovery (modern medicine = 0% recovered people, theyre drugging them with addictive sprays) i tried the other stuff (reasonably - when i have broken leg , i dont treat it by myself) and it worked.

Argument with Nobel prize is weak - i told you, the guy who invented Lobotomy got a Nobel Prize - Mr. Moniz in year 1949.

[BronzeDog]

blaaaah the woman with gangrene is extreme example. For cases like broken leg, blood poisoning, - i.e. pathological cases - the medicine works. Im talking about chronic illnesses, which give to modern medicine the biggest amount of money.

I thought I made it clear: She got the gangrene because she didn't follow the doctor's advice on how to live with her diabetes.

DDT - i dont remeber exactly how it was - what does it make the difference for people if doctors say - it is not very dangerous - you CAN be exposed to it , or by saying it is safe? Catch my drift?

Not even a little bit. And I didn't say "not very dangerous", I said "not as dangerous."

About natural stuff - i gave you 3 examples, read properly please - Buteyko's method, Sinusitis, UTI - all 3 chronic diseases. Buteykos method was published 25 years ago with 96% improvement, SinusBuster - check out user reviews on eBay, UTI- D-Mannose - the only one study shows that it helps in 100% cases when infection is due to bacteria named E.coli (responsible for 90% of UTI's).

Direct links, please. Oh, and I don't trust testimonials like "user reviews". You should know why.

Argument with Nobel prize is weak - i told you, the guy who invented Lobotomy got a Nobel Prize - Mr. Moniz in year 1949.

And my point still flies over your head: Scientists rewarded people for proving the dominant thought wrong. The guys who proved stomach ulcers are caused by pathogens are probably going to end up cutting into antacid sales, probably a very profitable business.

[slavo]

there goes the evidence:
Feedback for Sinusitis relief: http://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewFeedback&userid=jvocino

UTI- D-Mannose http://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewFeedback&userid=moyer61

Asthma -
http://www.nqnet.com/buteyko/
- this I have confirmed even on paper from ordinary doctor :)))

I knew that you will take it literally for single ion - hehehehe just shows your lack of arguments. I didnt say single ion makes you sick - you said that.

Aspartame: this stuff is everywhere - for example
http://www.innvista.com/health/nutrition/diet/saspart.htm

do your own research, you will find a lot of interecting things :))) Or is your response limited only to try to make look people not trustworthy?

[slavo]

With DDT - the result was that DDT was labeled as SAFE as now aspartame is labeled as safe. What you are doing is just a word play.

oh so you don't trust when 99.9% users in eBay who paid for the product write that it helped?
well, then theres no help for you too :)))

[slavo]

She couldve followed some idiot who said he is natural healer. That argument talks about a person, not about healing.
how does the example with woman not following doctors advice is linked to inefficiency of natural heling methods?

To be precise - lets talk about 3 diseases (mostly chronical) for which natural cure is known and is being supressed.

[BronzeDog]

Feedback links

I told you I already reject testimonials. Do you know why?

Asthma -
http://www.nqnet.com/buteyko/
- this I have confirmed even on paper from ordinary doctor :)))

I don't see any double-blind control studies there.

I knew that you will take it literally for single ion - hehehehe just shows your lack of arguments. I didnt say single ion makes you sick - you said that.

You said earlier: "3.Yes - single mercury ion is dangerous without body having an enzyme to neutralize it." Perhaps you have a different definition of "dangerous" than I do.

do your own research, you will find a lot of interecting things :))) Or is your response limited only to try to make look people not trustworthy?

I've done plenty of my own research. You're not giving me much more than your word to contradict it, along with some non-direct links with the most basic of flaws in them.

With DDT - the result was that DDT was labeled as SAFE...

That's news to me.

...as now aspartame is labeled as safe.

It seems reasonable to me to label it safe. I haven't seen any evidence that it's harmful.

What you are doing is just a word play.

This, from someone who distorts what I actually said about DDT into almost the exact opposite.

oh so you don't trust when 99.9% users in eBay who paid for the product write that it helped?
well, then theres no help for you too :)))

So, believing that human beings are fallible means there's no hope for me. Sorry. I'm not buying into the deification of the human race.

[BronzeDog]

To be precise - lets talk about 3 diseases (mostly chronical) for which natural cure is known and is being supressed.

Funny. World-wide suppression of natural cures that requires the silence of millions of people in order to be suppressed. Now THAT is cynicism. Okay. Show me the evidence that these cures work.

[slavo]

Double Blinded study
http://www.mja.com.au/public/issues/xmas98/bowler/bowler.html
- in study is the result of average 49% reduction of drug intake
- my own experience - the more you practise exercises the less drugs - after some period you dont need to do exercises, you breathe properly and have no need of drugs.
- control group 0%

aspartame is labeled safe today in the same way as DDT was labeled safe.

so 99.9% cured people - do you know that feedback from eBay is not made up? Everyone can write what they want. Can you imagine somebody paying for bad product and writing a good feedback? 99.9% and 1 neutral user .

You reject it by this:
"So, believing that human beings are fallible means there's no hope for me. Sorry. I'm not buying into the deification of the human race."
.
So 99.9% of people are saying that it helped (the product is completely natural from pepper with no side effects), if people get problems you can be sure they will write negative feedback, but there are no doctors present
- so you choose not to believe it.
Well, it all comes down whom you choose to believe :)))
yes theres no hope for such guys - theyre buying the pharmacy religion completely.

[slavo]

corrected link

http://www.mja.com.au/public/
issues/xmas98/bowler/bowler.html

[slavo]

ok, back to work
enjoy the reading,
hopefully on monday you will come with theory, how do people on eBay produce 99.9 % positive feedbacks, and each feedback is posted.
Seems like eBay is a major rival for the pharmacy industry :))))))

[BronzeDog]

so 99.9% cured people - do you know that feedback from eBay is not made up? Everyone can write what they want. Can you imagine somebody paying for bad product and writing a good feedback? 99.9% and 1 neutral user .

Yes. I can very easily imagine someone praising a bad product. It involves confirmation bias, the regressive fallacy, misattribution, and dozens of other psychological tricks humans perform to rationalize decisions.

So 99.9% of people are saying that it helped (the product is completely natural from pepper with no side effects), if people get problems you can be sure they will write negative feedback, but there are no doctors present

They're saying it, but without proper controls, they can't know. I seem to recall there was a lot of positive testimonials for radium. Additionally, I can easily imagine the failures not reporting: A lot of quacks like to get the victims to blame themselves for failures. Additionally, the "works for me" attitude makes it easy for people not to care if something fails: They just move on, and for the people who it seemed to work for, they're already discouraging themselves from criticizing something that *seems* to work for some people.

Double Blinded study
http://www.mja.com.au/public/issues/xmas98/bowler/bowler.html
- in study is the result of average 49% reduction of drug intake
[snipped anecdotal personal experience]
- control group 0%

Something I found real quick: An apparently contradictory DBT

[slavo]

so 99.9% cured people - do you know that feedback from eBay is not made up? Everyone can write what they want. Can you imagine somebody paying for bad product and writing a good feedback? 99.9% and 1 neutral user .

"Yes. I can very easily imagine someone praising a bad product. It involves confirmation bias, the regressive fallacy, misattribution, and dozens of other psychological tricks humans perform to rationalize decisions."

Im sorry , you are a religious fanatic.
You must imagine a lot :))))

Concerning your link - you prolly didnt even read it :))) the link basically draws same consclusions as mine

[BronzeDog]

Just a note: Did a quick google search, and the closest thing I can find to DDT being labelled "safe" by the FDA involves a long-ago era of limited data whose history has probably been heavily distorted, or modern times under very specific, limited conditions. And we should all know that safe under specific conditions doesn't mean unconditionally safe. Just because my car is reasonably safe for driving on public roads under traffic laws doesn't mean it's safe to, say, drive it off a cliff.

Of course, all this has to do with an organization that's irrelevant to the discussion. If aspartame is dangerous, there should be evidence for it, which is one of the small things I'm asking for. "The FDA was wrong before" doesn't cut it.

[BronzeDog]

Im sorry , you are a religious fanatic.
You must imagine a lot :))))

Funny, I didn't know that considering humans subject to things that I've observed in myself and others such as confirmation bias, the regressive fallacy, etc. constituted a religious belief. I guess this means I have all the bad luck of running into only flawed human beings.

Concerning your link - you prolly didnt even read it :))) the link basically draws same consclusions as mine

Okay, maybe I did misread it. I did say I found it quickly. I'll read them more thouroughly, later.

[Skeptico]

On a related subject, YOU JUST MIGHT BE AN ALTIE IF…

(The timing seemed germane.)

[BronzeDog]

Did a little more research. Looks like Buteyko might actually be promising. This is a rare event for me. It's hard for me to find specific criticisms of the trials, but as I've said in other threads, my search-fu is often in doubt.

Of course, if Buteyko does work, it doesn't change my criticisms of the other stuff.

[slavo]

Dr.Buteyko is long dead, method was introduced 25 years ago, and FDA + pharmacy industry was and is doing everything to make people not know about it.

The 3 examples i mentioned are my own experience.
The fact that alternative medicine is filled with hoaxers doesnt imply that it doesnt work.
In nature there is cure for every disease.

[BronzeDog]

Dr.Buteyko is long dead, method was introduced 25 years ago, and FDA + pharmacy industry was and is doing everything to make people not know about it.

So, just what was the FDA and pharma industry doing to suppress Buteyko? I don't see how such a thing could be done, so I'd like a little information.

In nature there is cure for every disease.

Evidence, please?

[slavo]

BronzeDog how much do they pay you?
Or are you so arrogant?

25 years there is documented method of helping people without poisoning them by asthma drugs (steroids) with high efficiency and fast effect.

How come so many asthma drugs made it to market and this costless method - 99.9% of asthma doctors are not aware of it?

You are not looking for the truth.
I will let you do your job.
Enjoy yourself.

[BronzeDog]

US$0.00 per year. Oh, and don't use propaganda techniques like "obtain disapproval." You got so much farther with double-blind control studies.

Or are you so arrogant?

Nope. That's why I rely on double-blind control studies to demonstrate effects.

25 years there is documented method of helping people without poisoning them by asthma drugs (steroids) with high efficiency and fast effect.

The fact that you showed me some promising results suggests that the FDA can't cover it up.

How come so many asthma drugs made it to market and this costless method - 99.9% of asthma doctors are not aware of it?

I doubt it's that much, and I suspect it's probably because the sorts of people who endorse these things usually don't talk about real evidence. If that's the case, it's not skepticism that's the problem, it's the sloppiness of the advocates.

You are not looking for the truth.
I will let you do your job.
Enjoy yourself.

I was asking a question: "How did they cover it up?" I think that shows I was looking for truth. You just didn't answer my question.

[Skeptico]

slavo:

Re: In nature there is cure for every disease.

A bold claim. Can you back that up with independent studies? Perhaps “every disease” would be too onerous – choose 5 major diseases, and show us the evidence.

[BronzeDog]

We might want to define "In nature" first, since there are multiple definitions. I'm presuming he means "originating from non-human sources" or something like that.

Was just in an argument about the nonsense word "supernatural", so I'm being cautious.