I wasn’t going to bother with this, but numerous people have emailed me to ask when I’m going to review The Secret, and as it seems to be everywhere I decided I should give it a look.
I’m not going to watch the entire movie, though. As I wrote here, I’ve seen enough to get an idea if something is worth bothering with before I even start. And I don’t have to read every book or watch every film someone tells me about if I don’t think the book or film’s premise makes sense. However, I found the first 20 minutes online for free (I’m definitely not paying to see this film), and I’m basing this review on that initial 20 minute segment. If you think I’ve missed some crucial part of the film by only seeing 20 minutes, you can tell me what I missed, in the comments.
So, what is the big Secret?
The Secret is what they call the Law Of Attraction – the idea that you become or attract what you think about the most. Or as one person expressed it:
“Thoughts become things.”
This is presented as a literal truth – a law just like the laws of gravitation. And it is stated that this:
“Always works every time”
Note: always. And every time. No exceptions. It’s a Law, you see.
Examples are given. A man is shown worrying about being late, and so he gets stuck in a traffic jam. Another man is shown locking up his bicycle, presumably because he is worried about it being stolen; he returns later to find it has been stolen. The absurdity of these examples should be obvious. Are we supposed to believe the traffic jam wouldn’t have happened if it were not for this one guy worrying about being late? And what about the other people in the traffic jam? Were they all thinking negative thoughts about being late? Were there no positive-minded people in the area, thinking about being on time? And if there were, doesn’t that debunk the “always works every time” mantra? And what about the guy getting his bike stolen? Are we to assume that if another guy had left an identical unlocked bike at the same location, the bike thief would still have stolen the locked bike of the person worried about theft? Has anyone done a controlled study on this? (Hey, these were the examples used in the film – don’t blame me if they make no sense.)
As with What The Bleep, it is implied that there is science behind these revelations. For example, there was this from the self-proclaimed "visionary" Rev. Dr. Michael Beckwith:
"It has been proven scientifically now that an affirmative thought is hundreds of times more powerful than a negative thought."
Really? Proven by which scientists? And written up where? Because I couldn’t find it.
Not a Law
Of course, the basic flaw in all this is that the Law Of Attraction is not a Law like the Law Of Gravitation that they compare it to. Newton’s Law’s can be demonstrated by anyone – drop an object and its acceleration will be exactly as the Law predicts. And this really does “always work every time” – that’s why it’s a Law. The “Law Of Attraction” as they call it just doesn’t work that way. Although having a positive attitude, being confident, believing in your own success etc is a definite advantage, and should be encouraged, having positive thoughts will not send out magic brainwave frequencies that change reality around you. This brainwave “magnetic signature” as one person called it, never goes out, any time. Not in the real world.
Equivocation
As with What the Bleep, you should watch out for equivocation. Expect believers to point out that being positive, confident etc will make people react more positively towards you, will tend to make you more successful etc. And it will. But they are equivocating about a lesser version of The Secret – a lesser version that does not support the “thoughts become things” and “it always works every time” woo version.
The film featured some of the same luminaries as in What the Bleep. I noticed John Hagelin and Fred Alan Wolf. And the “you literally create your day with your thoughts” nonsense is pretty much the same as What The Bleep was trying to sell. It wasn’t in the first 20 minutes, but I’m sure that before the end, quantum mechanics would have been evoked to justify all the mystical conclusions. Unfortunately, Quantum Mechanics, and even the Copenhagen Interpretation, does not say this is the way the universe works.
And that’s no secret.
Other articles
Mike’s Weekly Skeptic Rant has an amusing review.
Karin Klein in the LA Times - another amusing review.
The Skeptic’s Dictionary on the law of attraction.
The Secret of Delusion from The Second Sight.
Newsweek article Decoding “The Secret”.
Skeptico's follow-up post Feb 23, 2007 - The “Law” of Attraction (Not).
Skeptico's follow-up post Feb 24, 2007 - Law of Attraction not working for Joe Vitale.
Salon on Oprah's ugly secret .
The Secret of The Secret - A cult self-help DVD fleeces the credulous from ReasonOnline.
The Onion gets it right as usual.
The Village Voice on Shopping with The Secret.
Oprah's 'Secret' Could Be Your Downfall from AlterNet.
The Wrath of the Secretrons from the Skeptical Inquirer.
The Secret of The Secret's Success, by Steve Salerno in The American Spectator.
Think Negative! Oprah, it's time to come clean about The Secret.
I'm currently attempting to secure a copy of my own: Someone on the JREF forums got a copy for Decemberween, and is willing to give it to me, once his mom is done with it.
I'm going to be doing a full agony booth-length review when I get it.
I'm going to maintain my sanity the way the MST3K crew did.
Posted by: Bronze Dog | February 20, 2007 at 04:42 AM
Bronze Dog's building robots out of spare parts!
Actually, this is true. All you have to do is hook a person up to a thoughtometer. It measures the energy level of the thoughtons leaving a person's brain. Negative thoughts produce thoughtons between 2 and 800 milliRodins (mRd), whereas positive thoughts range from 500mRd to about 100Rd. The highest positive thought ever recorded was 103.5Rd, and that was from a woman whose rich hot doctor boyfriend proposed to her as she reached climax. I'm hoping to do my thesis on thoughtwaves, which are hypothesized to occur when two incredibly positive people pass by each other.Posted by: Tom Foss | February 20, 2007 at 08:00 AM
I'm going to maintain my sanity the way the MST3K crew did.
We'll send him cheesy movies,
(la-la-la)
The worst we can find!
(la-la-la)
Posted by: Rockstar Ryan | February 20, 2007 at 10:14 AM
You can see the entire thing on Google Video.
Imho, this movie tells the power of self fulfilling prophecies and uses basic examples. I liked it 1000x more than Bleep crap.
http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=the+secret+chapter
Posted by: BigSend | February 20, 2007 at 01:27 PM
BigSend’s link to The Secret on Google Video for easy clicking.
Posted by: Skeptico | February 20, 2007 at 01:40 PM
Guess I'll be setting aside some time this weekend if the video isn't gone by then.
Anyone else: If you have an MST3K moment while watching, get a screen capture and send me a caption.
Posted by: Bronze Dog | February 20, 2007 at 02:33 PM
"an MST3K moment"??
Posted by: Skeptico | February 20, 2007 at 03:51 PM
Every school child knows that the Law of Jinx is a much more powerful tool then the Law of Attraction. The Law of Jinx says that if you think something is going to happen: it won't. It is called 'jinxing' it. It is the exact opposite of the Law of Attraction. For example when I woke up today I thought I was going to eat pancakes for breakfast. I jinxed it and had cold oatmeal instead. :(
Jinx also has other mysterious uses. If you shout it when someone is shooting a basketball it will cause them to miss. Also if you say something at the exact same time as another person and are able to yell “jinx!” before they do it will cause them to buy you a coke.
The Law of Jinx. It works every time!
Posted by: Joe | February 21, 2007 at 07:45 AM
Skeptico:
I'm actually glad that not all skeptics are sci-fi watching, D&D playing, video game beating nerds like BD and I.
(MST3K means Mystery Science Theater 3000)
Posted by: Rockstar Ryan | February 21, 2007 at 07:47 AM
I used to be a big MST3K fan.
And I've been having lots of fun being pop-psychoanalyzed by fans of The Secret.
Posted by: Cosmic Connie | February 21, 2007 at 03:33 PM
Yeah Connie, I've attracted my share of psychobabblers too.
I still don't know what a "MST3K moment" is.
Posted by: Skeptico | February 21, 2007 at 03:42 PM
The way Mystery Science Theater 3000 works: Mike/Joel and the robots (Tom Servo and Crow) make fun of the movie as it plays. If you come up with a particularly funny joke about what's on screen, it's an MST3K moment.
Posted by: Bronze Dog | February 21, 2007 at 04:48 PM
Oh I see. The Secret should be full of MST3K moments, in that case.
Posted by: Skeptico | February 21, 2007 at 04:56 PM
"Oh I see. The Secret should be full of MST3K moments, in that case."
So, for that matter, should "What The Bleep," "Conversations With God," and "The Celestine Prophecy." Oh, and that film "Indigo," about Indigo brats...the one that God's conversational partner, Neale Donald Walsch, played in. Matter of fact, the entire "Spiritual Cinema" genre
is ripe for the MST3K treatment.
See http://www.spiritualcinemacircle.com
Posted by: Cosmic Connie | February 22, 2007 at 08:14 AM
The Law of Jinx. It works every time!
I thought that was Colt 45 (At least according to Billy Dee Williams)...
Posted by: marc | February 22, 2007 at 12:47 PM
One of the stars of "The Secret" tackles the "science" behind the Law of Attraction today:
http://mrfire.blogspot.com/2007/02/is-attraction-law.html
Posted by: Cosmic Connie | February 23, 2007 at 09:59 AM
That Joe Vitale is pretty clueless. I just posted a reply replied to his silly piece on the Law of Attraction.
Posted by: Skeptico | February 23, 2007 at 11:11 AM
It works whether you believe it and understand it or not =)
Posted by: | March 02, 2007 at 12:24 AM
Very convincing argument, Anonymous. Are all of the adherents of this technique rich, famous, or whatever else they want to be? Are you? Somehow, I doubt it.
Posted by: Big Al | March 02, 2007 at 03:49 AM
It works whether you believe it and understand it or not =)
Well I'm sold.
Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | March 02, 2007 at 07:56 AM
1. Go to your local library
2. Find a copy of the Little Engine tha Could
3. Buy a latte with the $ you saved.
Posted by: Ilsa | March 02, 2007 at 11:47 AM
I have known about the concepts of THE SECRET For years now. I have learned about them through my studies in Buddhism, Quantum physics, Majick etc.. I realise this is a skeptic site and my stepfather is founder of Camp Quest so I have been very influenced by "skeptics" in my life.
I am not an atheist, I am a skeptic in so much as to listen to my gut. I regularly examine both sides instead of merely throwing everything out the window.
The fact is.. the ideas in the Secret are valid. I know many would doubt that. I think the unfortunate matter is that the SECRET is presented in a trendy "you can be a millionaire too" type of way instead of understanding the more profound aspects of what being in control of your destiny and your reality really entail.
I believe we humans CAN affect things in profound ways. I do believe that quantum physics and the way we understand the laws of physics affects our lives. The way we understand how the universe works on a quantum/atomic level isn't merely limited to what matter is etc.. I believe that it is applicable to our larger reality.
THat is a hard concept to grasp for many as they choose to be victims or helpless and would rather be affected upon rather than AFFECT their reality.
Many believe we are merely skin and bones and will return to dust and it is as it is in the universe. But I don't believe that. I think that our growing undersanding of the universe is showing us profound realizations that will affect the way we live.
That is a radical paradigm shift that most are still not ready to hear.
I don't think, however, the Seceret neccessarily is helping this change. I think it is promoting the same stuff that is rooted in material consumerism.
I think the shift has to come more from within US.. and our views about what is happiness and abundance.
Posted by: Caelidh | March 03, 2007 at 07:14 AM
Caelidh says (alright I paraphrase):
I'm a skeptic but...woo woo blah blah
Gosh, never heard that approach before.
The fact is.. the ideas in the Secret are valid.
Prove it. You are skeptical after all, so in order for you to boldly state that you obviously have verifiable evidence you can show to us. I mean, you wouldn't just pretend you were skeptical would you?
I think the unfortunate matter is that the SECRET is presented in a trendy "you can be a millionaire too" type of way instead of understanding the more profound aspects of what being in control of your destiny and your reality really entail.
No, the unfortunate matter is that it's bollocks and people believe it AND spend their money on it. People are in control of their lives, but there's nothing mystical about it. It's just life.
I believe we humans CAN affect things in profound ways.
Ok, but how is that a startling revelation or remotely interesting. Hey guys, humans can affect things profoundly. Who'd a thunk?
I do believe that quantum physics and the way we understand the laws of physics affects our lives.
Well duh. Of course, this isn't true in the way you think it is.
The way we understand how the universe works on a quantum/atomic level isn't merely limited to what matter is etc.. I believe that it is applicable to our larger reality.
What? Oh wait, I must be a victim and/or helpless.
Many believe we are merely skin and bones and will return to dust and it is as it is in the universe. But I don't believe that. I think that our growing undersanding of the universe is showing us profound realizations that will affect the way we live.
And I believe Liverpool are the best football team in the world. Unfortunately my belief doesn't make it true without evidence. And the evidence says otherwise.
That is a radical paradigm shift that most are still not ready to hear.
And there it is folks. The old woo ploy of 'If you don't see it the way I do, it's because you're not as smart as me.'
Do you have anything useful to say on the subject, or do you just want to keep repeating the same rubbish we hear over and over again?
Sorry to appear so grumpy folks, but I'm getting a little sick and tired of these woo bleevers telling me I'm just not as smart/rich/caring/happy/fulfilled/insightful/open minded as them. Frankly, if being all those thing makes me like them, I'm glad.
Posted by: Jimmy_Blue | March 03, 2007 at 07:50 AM
Jimmy, that old woo ploy of 'If you don't see it the way I do, it's because you're not as smart as me,' is one you know well from running it so often yourself.
The Woos are telling you that you ARE just as smart, rich, caring, happy, fulfilled, and insightful as them - just not as open-minded. Being all those things makes you like them - we're all one bro.
Woo-woo back at ya!
Posted by: rog dog | March 05, 2007 at 05:20 PM
Oh please do tell when specifically you've seen me use that ploy. I'm sure you've got evidence. Right?
The Woos are telling you that you ARE just as smart, rich, caring, happy, fulfilled, and insightful as them - just not as open-minded.
Perhaps you should look around the site a little more, because that is most definitely not what they say. Take previous idiots like John Vincent and Gregory as examples if you like.
Then of course there is the obvious point that woos are not open minded. The simple fact is they cannot concieve of what evidence it would take for them to be shown to be wrong, and hence they are the close minded ones. I am open to the fact that I may be wrong, and I await evidence to show this. Can the woos say the same?
Being all those things makes you like them - we're all one bro.
Only I'm not rich. We're not all one, mate.
Posted by: Jimmy_Blue | March 05, 2007 at 05:45 PM
No personal offense, but from my experience, woos are generally the most narrow-minded, rigid, unyielding, uncaring, oblivious, and hostile people I know. Especially the fundie sect.
Posted by: Bronze Dog | March 05, 2007 at 05:57 PM
Woo-woos are more open-minded??
That is the most ridiculous thing I've heard all day. Good for a chuckle, but scary you think that way.
Being "open-minded" simply means that you are willing to admit you are wrong. The principles of woo go against that - they bleeve no matter what the evidence says.
Posted by: Rockstar Ryan | March 06, 2007 at 09:50 AM
What is a hard concept to grasp is just because you've heard the words "Heisenberg" and "entanglement" doesn't mean you know anything about quantum physics. You may "believe" that the effects of the quantum-scale univers is applicable to our larger reality, and to an extent you'd be right. Every piece of electronics, every bit of technology that relies on radioactive isotopes, every particle accelerator, every star in the sky relies on certain quantum effects.
Where you're wrong is in thinking that quantum effects in any way validate the claims in "The Secret." There is a nonzero possibility that by wishing for a bicycle, one will appear on your doorstep. Mathematically, this is about as probable as you suddenly turning into a walrus as you walk down the street (actually, probably a little less probable).
You think you know quantum mechanics? I'll pose the same questions to you that I did to the last dipshit who promoted such a falsehood: have you ever normalized a wavefunction? Can you give me the three-dimensional Time-Dependent Schrödinger Equation? Perhaps you could give me the basic expression for momentum, using the complex conjugate of the wavefunction. Do you know what an eigenstate is? Do you have any idea what value is represented by < a | a >? These are some of the most basic exercises in quantum physics. If it looks like gibberish to you, then stop claiming you know something about quantum physics. And if you do understand it, then prove it, and tell us all how it explains "The Secret."
Posted by: Tom Foss | March 06, 2007 at 10:40 AM
Hey, I recently bought that book The Secret...I've been reading it and think its mainly just a rehashing of the same Postive thinking stuff that you hear over and over again. Nothing in it is new or hasn't been said before. There is nothing revolutionary in it.
Apparently, one premise I read in the book is...for instance, I could send out positive thoughts that today someone would offer me a cup of cofee and it would happen. Well, so far no luck. Anyway, what if I dont leave the house? What if I don't answer the telephone? What if I fall asleep? How do they offer me a cup of coffee? It seems to me that I and I alone can make choices every moment that decide what will happen in my future. I doubt very much that my super positive thought waves are making any difference...unless I want to create self fulfilling prophecy and hover around friends and look like I need a cup of coffee.
Also I really feel its irresponsibile for anyone to believe that you attract what you think...so what about some child that gets abducted...or a woman gets raped by some pervert weirdo...did they think that? did they attract that? A child? I believe that things happen becuase they happen...due to choices that are made by many people....to say that we are responsible for everything that happens to us is ridiculous.
The Law of Attraction is very "me" oriented as well. According ot this kind of philosophy if you are not truly happy...ie. lets say in a married relationship...you should be seeking to be happy...you know find "yourself" and all such drivel.
Frankly, I have found that I find myself far more by paying more attention to helping and serving others than serving my own needs as the priority.
Today all these theories are based on a basic premise...I, me, myself...its everything...if I believe in I,me, myself...than I can be happy. Happy = rich, famous, money, recognition and slaps on the back....well, Life isnt always like that. Nor should it be. Some of the greatest growth as a human being is made through suffering...sad to say. But that is when the human spirit can transcend the ordinary and become the extraordinary.
And we dont need some overpriced book...(that is obviously making somebody a nice cool couple of million).
I think its the Law of Attraction of How to Attract Suckers...that would be more apt.
Posted by: Christine Donovan | March 06, 2007 at 11:24 AM
It totally baffles me how in the 21st century so many people can still be duped the way they have been duped by charlatans and con artists throughout history. Is it any wonder that evangelicals can fleece their congregations for their hard earned cash, that con artists claiming that they need money to get to huge wealth deposited in Nigerian bank vaults, cults can get masses of people to do as the cult leader pleases without question and Islamic extremist who are willing to blow themselves up still run rampant. A great deal of our society may as well still be living in mud huts scared of thunder and thinking that an eclipse is the sign of an unhappy deity. The level of ignorance and superstition runs as deep and wide as it has since life forms first walked the earth.
Please feel free to forward this comment to anyone who proclaims crap like The Secret, What the Bleep, Fly Yogi’s, etc…
Posted by: | March 06, 2007 at 02:16 PM
um...i'm just a hard workin single mom who recently watched The Secret...and then put the concepts presented to work...i'll be damned...absolutely everything i've put my focus on has come to pass...i put the thought out there (so to speak...i'm just talking in layman's terms) that i would be working a job closer to home...two weeks later i was laid off from my position which took me 45 minutes to an hour to get to (both ways)...i could have gotten desperate and panicked (single mom, 4 kids) but, i stayed focused...it helped that i was given a month's severance...i went home and wrote down the life i wanted as though i was already living it...3 weeks later i got a call about a position 10 minutes from my home...hired on the spot...
another desire i had was that doggone child support i wasn't getting...so, i put the thought out there again that i would have an abundance of money...yup, 3 weeks after getting this job, the child support kicked in...i actually have enough coming in to put away in savings...and i can finally say yes to my kids for those little things they want like, well...new shoes...
i wanted a vehicle that was dependable and big enough to cart around my kids...got a call from a friend who found a van for sale...got the money...an unexpected gift...got the van...
it's been working in my world...and this began after i started using what, quite frankly, we've been told for years before this movie came out...for me, it just wrapped things up in a way that i could understand and then turn around and use...
my sister put it out there that she would receive $10,000.00 in unexpected income...right out of The Secret...she did her taxes...$6,047.00 right there...$250.00, gift from a friend...and her ex threw in $100.00 from the goodness of his heart, totally unexpected...
i don't have your intellect...i haven't gone out and studied big books or spent years in college...don't have the time to delve deep into theories or statistics...i'm just someone who thought...what the heck, i'll try it...sounds like i've already been doing it and quite frankly...life has been pretty hard...if all i get from this is a better attitude, that's cool...i've gotten a lot more and yeah...it's way cool...
Posted by: Mora | March 08, 2007 at 09:49 PM
Mora,
Had you hoped you would lose your job? How many jobs did you apply for that you didn't get? How hard have you been working to get the child support you were owed and for how long? How many people knew you were looking for a new car but didn't call with a possibility?
Did you watch the Secret before or after these things happened? You refer to a time period covering 8 weeks, but say you watched the Secret recently. If you watched it after, then you could be falling for confirmation bias and selective thinking about events.
What have we been told for years? That if you work hard and focus then you might get what you're working towards? Is that a 'Secret'? Or is it common sense? Is that some magical 'Law of Attraction'?
Don't be surprised that you're hard work paid off, and don't sell yourself short by putting the results down to mystical bullshit when it's all down to you.
More importantly though, think about this. If the Secret is true, then how do you account for all the people who don't get what they are working and wishing for? Do the victims of the AIDs crisis in Africa wish for it? How about rape victims, are they to blame for their attack, do they wish for it. Or do the attackers just want it more?
Posted by: Jimmy_Blue | March 08, 2007 at 10:13 PM
Mora,
How does your 'Secret' explain this:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6429373.stm>BBC article
Posted by: Jimmy_Blue | March 08, 2007 at 10:41 PM
Mora, how does the father to your four kids figure in this?
If you are widow, is it because you brought on to yourself? Did the Law of Attraction turn you into a single mom of four kids? (by the way, if the father is still alive and not providing for his children... then I have a separate form of rage for that, there is a man who has never acknowledged nor communicated with my step-sibling --- to call him slime would be an insult to slime).
Remember according to "The Secret" the Law of Attraction is working whether you know it or not. Which is why some of us are disgusted because it is essentially blaming the victims of rape and even the Holocaust of World War II of bringing the horrors they experienced on to themselves.
I know for sure that I did not wish for my mother to die in an airplane accident when I was eleven years old... and I really did not try to use any fool "Law of Attraction" to give birth to a disabled kid.
While it is admirable to be able to overcome adversities... it is not so admirable to blame the misfortune people experience because they had "negative" thoughts.
Posted by: HCN | March 08, 2007 at 11:27 PM
Mona,
I wonder how many women in just your former situation watched "The Secret" but have NOT seen this wonderful turn-around you have.
Certainly, just sitting around and waiting for something to fall into your lap is not an option if you want to pick yourself up. Hard work is not an inevitable bringer of success, but idleness never is.
It doesn't take a new universal law to explain that.
Posted by: Big Al | March 09, 2007 at 01:21 AM
i am not a widow...but i am one who's mindset for years has been that i will always have something to "survive"...literally...i grew up with the philosophy, "believe the worst will happen so that when it does, you are not surprised"...little surprise that the worst has come to pass in my life more often than not...
it has taken work, it has taken a conscious effort on my part to be mindful, awake so to speak and to focus on changing the way i think...the next step is to pay attention to the signs and to follow them...trust/have faith that the Universe/God is answering my request...
as for the time frame of all these crazy events...i watched the downloaded Secret for $5.00, right off my computer 11/24/2006. it is after watching this that all the events i mentioned have come to pass...believe what you will...i know what's working in my world...i'm living it...
the part about responsibility or blaming oneself for "bad' things that have occurred...the point is being missed...as a child of abuse i for the longest time lived in the mode of victim...constantly angry, constantly in emotional pain...and then one day i took responsibility...certainly i didn't choose the abuse i experienced in this life...but, i believe i did in a past life (here's where noses turn up and lips curl...so be it)...i also chose to view the abuse as an opportunity for me...i decided that the positive for me was that i can go in and speak from experience to those who suffered as i did...the moment i made this decision to take "responsibility", the nightmares stopped, the anger went away...i was even able to forgive...all this due to a simple shift, as is mentioned in The Secret...i took this on years prior to watching the dvd, but, it follows the same mode of thinking...
as for the pain and suffering going on in the world...as someone who believes in past lives and follows an eastern mode of thinking, it makes sense to consider that perhaps what is happening in this life is a continuation of whatever lesson one chose from the previous...makes more sense to me than believing all this suffering in the world is somehow the fault of God and senseless...all the suffering, however horrible does come with a positive side...believe it or not...sometimes it takes a searching deep and painful, but it is there...i know this from personal experience...
and, consider for a moment the idea that the law of attraction doesn't just operate on a one person at a time level...it can also operate on a much larger scale...self fulfilling prophesies believed in by the masses...for example: it is well known and accepted that the children of God are to be persecuted...the Old Testament states this clearly...so, to the Jewish community, Nazi, Germany is just one of many atrocities they've had to deal with...certainly i don't condone any of these happenings, to the Jewish people, people with AIDS, children of abuse, to any person who has suffered i pray for and i respect for their strength in the face of such horrors...but, i go a step forward and i look for the lesson in what they've gone thru...i know they are experiencing their situations for something...we might not see the reasons but, then, it may not be meant for us to see why...
oh boy, here it comes...
Posted by: mora | March 09, 2007 at 06:26 AM
Mora,
You know, last night I voiced a suspicion to my wife that you were a woo and not just a single mum whose hard work had paid off. Glad you didn't disappoint.
oh boy, here it comes...
Oh, you got that right. Before I was willing to give you the benefit of the doubt. Now I know you're a fully fledged paid up woo though, the gloves come off.
First, let me remind you of the questions I posted previously:
Had you hoped you would lose your job? How many jobs did you apply for that you didn't get? How hard have you been working to get the child support you were owed and for how long? How many people knew you were looking for a new car but didn't call with a possibility?
What have we been told for years? That if you work hard and focus then you might get what you're working towards? Is that a 'Secret'? Or is it common sense? Is that some magical 'Law of Attraction'?
trust/have faith that the Universe/God is answering my request...
What proof do you have that this is the case and that your hard work is not the actual cause of your change in fortune?
it is after watching this that all the events i mentioned have come to pass...believe what you will...i know what's working in my world...i'm living it...
Did you simply think about those events, or did you actually work hard towards them? People hiring for companies do not simply pick at random from a phone book, so how many jobs did you apply for? How many didn't get back to you?
the part about responsibility or blaming oneself for "bad' things that have occurred...the point is being missed...as a child of abuse i for the longest time lived in the mode of victim...constantly angry, constantly in emotional pain...and then one day i took responsibility...certainly i didn't choose the abuse i experienced in this life...but, i believe i did in a past life
Oh this is going to be fun. So, does the Secret cause bad things to happen to you or not? If not why not? How is it that it only causes 'good' things to happen to you?
as for the pain and suffering going on in the world...as someone who believes in past lives and follows an eastern mode of thinking, it makes sense to consider that perhaps what is happening in this life is a continuation of whatever lesson one chose from the previous
So, a little girl who is dragged from her bed by a disgusting pervert, who is then raped and buried alive in a bin bag and suffoctes slowly to death deserves it because of something she did in a past life? What kind of lesson did she choose from her past life exactly? Presumably you think the rapist shouldn't be punished then, since he is simply handing out the Universe's justice? In fact, should we not see him as some sort of divine avenger in your world view? If the same happened to one of your children, presumably you would tell them they deserved it as well?
makes more sense to me than believing all this suffering in the world is somehow the fault of God and senseless.
Senseless yes, the fault of god, no. He doesn't exist.
all the suffering, however horrible does come with a positive side...believe it or not...sometimes it takes a searching deep and painful, but it is there...i know this from personal experience...
You are not the world Mora. Your experience does not hold for everyone or everything. Good you found the positive in whatever it was you suffered. That does not mean everyone can or does.
consider for a moment the idea that the law of attraction doesn't just operate on a one person at a time level...it can also operate on a much larger scale...self fulfilling prophesies believed in by the masses...for example: it is well known and accepted that the children of God are to be persecuted...the Old Testament states this clearly...so, to the Jewish community, Nazi, Germany is just one of many atrocities they've had to deal with
Well known and accepted by people who believe a flawed, contradictory, human book is the inspired word of a non-existent sky fairy (while we're on this subject I recommened everyone read 'Misquoting Jesus' by Bart Ehrman - a brilliant study of mistakes and additions made in the bible since its first copies were made).
So, your argument is the 'law' of attraction does cause bad things to happen, so the Jews brought the Holocaust on themselves, right? There doesn't seem any wiggle room in your statement above. The 'law' works at a group level, the Jews believe they are to be persecuted, so they are persecuted, and the 'law' states that this they brought on themselves. Right?
certainly i don't condone any of these happenings, to the Jewish people, people with AIDS, children of abuse, to any person who has suffered i pray for and i respect for their strength in the face of such horrors
I'm sorry, but you just did condone it. They bring these things on themselves either because of something they did in a previous existence (for which you have no proof), or they brought it on themselves through believing they should be persecuted as a group. If that isn't justification for what happened to them in your eyes, what is? You might go through some mental gymnastics to convince yourself that you are not saying they deserved it, but given your stated position there is no other conclusion you can draw.
If you believe these people deserved it, then why do you pray for them? They deserved it, they don't deserve your sympathy because they brought it on themselves. In fact, those who make them suffer should be praised in your world view shouldn't they, for distributing justice? In fact, in your world view those who commit crime or atrocity shouldn't be punished by us in this life since they will either recieve their punishment in the next life, or they are only doing what the universe wants them to do. Hey, it's your philosophy and your 'law', don't blame me.
i know they are experiencing their situations for something...we might not see the reasons but, then, it may not be meant for us to see why...
If we might not see the reasons, how do you know they are experiencing it for a reason? What you mean is you hope they experience it for a reason, otherwise you'd have to accept the universe for what it is. Uncaring, unfeeling and uninterested in your brief existence.
Folks, welcome to the World of Woo. If bad things happen to you it's all your fault. If good things happen, it's the 'Secret', or the 'law' of attraction. If you get raped, don't come crying to Mora, you deserved it.
Mora, I find your views morally repugnant and morally bankrupt, but also childish and blatantly wishful. It's 'click my heels and I'll be back in Kansas' coupled with 'nothing is my fault, whatever happens I or they deserved it.' with a touch of cherry picked mysticism thrown in. Different day, same old woo.
Posted by: Jimmy_Blue | March 09, 2007 at 09:15 AM
Mora said "for example: it is well known and accepted that the children of God are to be persecuted...the Old Testament states this clearly...so, to the Jewish community, Nazi, Germany is just one of many atrocities they've had to deal with...certainly i don't condone any of these happenings, to the Jewish people, people with AIDS, children of abuse, to any person who has suffered i pray for and i respect for their strength in the face of such horrors...but, i go a step forward and i look for the lesson in what they've gone thru...i know they are experiencing their situations for something...we might not see the reasons but, then, it may not be meant for us to see why..."
I'm sorry, but is just pure evil. To even think that they were persecuted, sickened or abused because "God says so" is horrible and morally bankrupt.
Posted by: HCN | March 09, 2007 at 09:26 AM
there once was a man who agreed with everyone...one day this man was challenged, "you can't agree with everyone!"...the man thought for a moment and answered...,
"you're right"...
your experience in this world is of your choosing...
the little girl who was raped so brutally...is it possible that in a past life she was a rapist?
the man who raped her...is it possible that in a past life he was the raped?
certainly he should experience the consequences to his actions...
"Had you hoped you would lose your job? How many jobs did you apply for that you didn't get? How hard have you been working to get the child support you were owed and for how long? How many people knew you were looking for a new car but didn't call with a possibility?"
absolutely, i hated my job...too far and not singin to me...the people were great but, i was bored out of my mind...the week prior to my lay off(budget cuts) the thought in my mind was a constant, "i can't stand this anymore"...my boss had tears in her eyes when delivering the news...despite my dislike for what i was doing, i did a great job...but, again, it wasn't the place for me...by the way...i applied for 4 jobs, got call backs on 2 but then...i got a call from the company that had just laid me off about a client of theirs needing help...interviewed and got the job on the spot...10 minutes from my home and i love it...indeed, it is exactly what i'd been "imagining"...
"Oh this is going to be fun. So, does the Secret cause bad things to happen to you or not? If not why not? How is it that it only causes 'good' things to happen to you?"
did you read what i said? i don't believe i chose the abuse in this life...i believe i chose it in a past life...law of attraction works life time to life time...it doesn't cause the bad things or the good things...i cause them...
if God forbid (for those who believe in God), something so horrible as what happened to the little girl were to happen to one of mine...i have to be honest on that one...that would rock me to my core...but, i do feel this...this concept, the Law of Attraction is what would save me from going insane from the rage...
"Senseless yes, the fault of god, no. He doesn't exist."
to each his own...whatever works for you...perhaps in a past life you persecuted those who didn't believe in God...and here you are today believing what you believe...
"You are not the world Mora. Your experience does not hold for everyone or everything. Good you found the positive in whatever it was you suffered. That does not mean everyone can or does."
you are right, never claimed to be the world...just know what has made sense in mine...this is why i can look at folks like yourself and be cool with that you don't see things like i do...that's ok, you're where your at for a reason unknown to me...i'm not meant to know...i'm here to learn what i need to learn...
"I'm sorry, but you just did condone it. They bring these things on themselves either because of something they did in a previous existence (for which you have no proof), or they brought it on themselves through believing they should be persecuted as a group. If that isn't justification for what happened to them in your eyes, what is? You might go through some mental gymnastics to convince yourself that you are not saying they deserved it, but given your stated position there is no other conclusion you can draw."
i don't condone it in the sense that i believe folks should just do what they do and not receive the consequences of their actions...i believe it all happens for a reason deeper and holier than you or i can fathom...something is meant to be drawn, whether drawn from this plane or another...there is a reason...
"If you believe these people deserved it, then why do you pray for them?"
i pray that they receive what they need to receive from the experience...and i find my compassion overflows for people suffering throughout this world.....i stand behind this by my actions...i've gone and seen first hand what true suffering is...i am always humbled...these folk, once past the initial disbelief of their situation and past the pain...some choose to become embittered...but many come away with such a grace...this is holy and perhaps difficult to understand if one doesn't believe in a God...after all is said and done, i've seen people who have been through atrocious suffering actually give thanks for what they've experienced...
"If we might not see the reasons, how do you know they are experiencing it for a reason? What you mean is you hope they experience it for a reason, otherwise you'd have to accept the universe for what it is. Uncaring, unfeeling and uninterested in your brief existence."
how do you know there is no God? how do you know that all of what i believe is just nonsense? how does anyone know anything...would you be so arrogant as to say that yours is the only true mode of thinking and the rest of the world be damned? very interesting...more and more i can see you as a religious zealot in a past life...but, then...i don't know...
"Mora, I find your views morally repugnant and morally bankrupt, but also childish and blatantly wishful. It's 'click my heels and I'll be back in Kansas' coupled with 'nothing is my fault, whatever happens I or they deserved it.' with a touch of cherry picked mysticism thrown in. Different day, same old woo."
hmmm...you find my views to be reprehensible...yet...so many who have taken on my views have found a peace so profound that folks like you don't make a dent in their joy...
again...to each his own...
by the way...i don't believe God says that bad should happen...i believe God says, what did you learn from this, what choice will you make now that you've experienced this....we choose what we go through...
Posted by: Mora | March 09, 2007 at 11:57 AM
See, here's the big logical problem: let's say the Secret does work, 100% of the time, for everyone.
So, when a Jew wishes "I want my people to not be persecuted" and a neo-Nazi wishes "I want the Jews to be persecuted," whose wish gets granted?
This is one of the most absurd parts of this whole doctrine: it's entirely self-centered. If one person wishes X and another wishes NOT X, they can't both be granted.
I realize that Mr. Vitale & Co. have built in an out to this, that the universe has bad hearing, and sometimes just hears the "X" part, and not the "not" part. But then, when you had 6 million Jews saying "not death" and a nation of Nazis saying "death," are they suggesting that the universe just misheard 6 million times?
And if you can't know whether or not the universe is going to grant your wish the way you wanted, then what use is the Law of Attraction. If you wish for "no more disease" and the universe will either give you "no more disease" or "more disease" in response, then how can you call it a law?
As far as the rapist/victim past lives bullshit goes, okay, let's accept your ad hocking. The rapist in this case was a rape victim in a previous life, and the victim was a rapist. What happens to the former victim/current rapist in the next life? After all, they were a rapist in this life, does that mean they have to be a rape victim in the next life? If your destiny in life is to be a rapist, due to some choice you made between lives, then how can you be punished for it in the next life?
Holy nuts, is this stuff insane.
Posted by: Tom Foss | March 09, 2007 at 01:39 PM
There is nothing new under the sun. Norman Vincent Peale (1898 - 1993) said it all far more eloquently in 1952 with that old stand-by The Power of Positive Thinking,” without the movie, website, and blah-blahgs. Now where did I put my emerald slippers????
Posted by: Lud Dite | March 09, 2007 at 02:17 PM
it does seem insane doesn't it? so did the thought that the world is not flat and that yes, we can fly to the moon...
we just don't know for sure do we? this is why i'll never call you an idiot...you make good points...i just know what settles in my gut as making perfect sense...
as for the rapist/victim question...my guess is that that experience has been had by both, now on to another experience...
probably bullshit, but again...makes perfect sense to me...
Posted by: Mora | March 09, 2007 at 02:52 PM
Mora.
It's rare that I find myself utterly gobsmacked by just how completely and utterly insanely stupid people can be. But you are an exception that almost proves it.
You're world view is so utterly devoid of any sense of morality, of responsibility, of reason, that you believe its ok for young girls to be raped because you believe in past lives. Something for which you have NO EVIDENCE.
Let's just re-iterate this. You ACCEPT that rape is ok, because you BELIEVE WITHOUT EVIDENTIAL BASIS that the rape victim deserves it. And you believe that the 'secret' actually supports this world view.
Not only are you scary, you are dangerous. Do you believe that we should have a justice system now, and if so for what purpose since people are to be divinely punished anyway. Why have prisons when people will get what's coming to them for the rest of eternity?
Let's examine how mind boggingly stupid your position is shall we?
If someone is raped, they deserved to be punished in this life for something they have no control over, no knowledge of, no memory of, and no responsibility for. But in their next life, they can aspire to be a rapist and get revenge on the person that raped them. And then in the life after that they can expect to be punished. And then get revenge. And then punished. And so on and so on.
There is no way to break this cycle, your destiny is predetermined. So, knowing this and experiencing terrible events in your life what is to stop you from ending your life in order to hurry on to the next one? Shouldn't that be encouraged for people who are suffering? What motivation is there to attempt to improve your life if you know you are being punished and will continue to be? What room does your worldview leave for free will? If you know you will not be divinely punished for your actions until the next life, then what motivation is there for you to behave morally now?
And this is the worldview that you want people to accept? And you believe its a good thing?
How does the 'secret' explain the obvious point that nobody would want to be raped and murdered and would wish for that not to happen, and would act accordingly and yet would still be raped because they deserve it? How does the 'secret' determine whether an individual's wishes and actions outweigh what they had no control over in a past life?
your experience in this world is of your choosing...
True to some extent, but not even close to the way you mean it.
the little girl who was raped so brutally...is it possible that in a past life she was a rapist?
I don't know. And more importantly neither do you. However you base your entire world view on the hope that she was. That's so twisted it's not even funny. More particularly though, the victim doesn't know and neither does her rapist, which just proves the utter moral bankruptcy and rank stupidity of your position.
the man who raped her...is it possible that in a past life he was the raped?
I don't know. Again, neither do you. You have no evidence for this supposition whatsoever, and yet base your world view on it.
certainly he should experience the consequences to his actions...
Why should he? He is simply getting justice for what has been done to him isn't he? More importantly according to what you believe though, he has no choice in this matter. He is not responsible for his actions, the 'secret' as you outline it lays the blame with the rape victim. Therefore, why should you think the rapist should be punished? Let's not forget just several paragraphs later you wrote:
i don't condone it in the sense that i believe folks should just do what they do and not receive the consequences of their actions
Just do what they do? What the hell? You can't even make your own mind up about the very 'law' you use to govern your life. Let's be clear, in the course of the same post you say both that people should face the consquence of their actions, and that they shouldn't. Which is it and why?
About your jobs:
You applied for 4, didn't get them, and then got a job you didn't apply for or think about, and you think that is proof of the 'secret'?
did you read what i said? i don't believe i chose the abuse in this life...i believe i chose it in a past life...law of attraction works life time to life time...it doesn't cause the bad things or the good things...i cause them...
Oh I read what you wrote. It just makes so little sense that I needed to ask more questions. So, you choose what is to happen to you in the next life you don't know about, in this life. Of course, in this life what you have chosen has already been chosen. And round and round and round. So, how can it be a choice?
i have to be honest on that one...that would rock me to my core...but, i do feel this...this concept, the Law of Attraction is what would save me from going insane from the rage...
So, the fact that your daughter must have deserved it because of a former life neither you nor her nor the rapist know of would keep you from going insane? You really are a scary piece of work. How would you explain to her that you thought she deserved it?
perhaps in a past life you persecuted those who didn't believe in God...and here you are today believing what you believe...
Perhaps in a past life you were a reasonably sane and intelligent person. And here you are today, can you stand the irony of the universe? Once again though, other than not having to accept reality, what evidence do you have for this view of me?
just know what has made sense in mine
And what makes sense to you is that child rape victims deserved it. Or that the victims of 9/11 all did some apparently similar thing in a former life to the 19 hijackers. Frankly, I'm almost ecstatically glad that I don't understand what you've learned, or that I am not meant to.
i don't condone it in the sense that i believe folks should just do what they do and not receive the consequences of their actions...i believe it all happens for a reason deeper and holier than you or i can fathom...something is meant to be drawn, whether drawn from this plane or another...there is a reason...
You really are truly frightening. Why should we have laws then? Why have a police force? Why have a justice system? Why ever try to take precautions against things happening? No amount of mental gymnastics or semantic juggling will let you escape. You believe that people deserve the often horrific events that happen to them. That is therefore justification for what happens to them, and that is your philosophy. You condone what was done during the Holocaust, what is occurring now in Darfur, what happened in Bosnia because you believe the victims all deserve it, and that the perpetrators should not be punished for it. It's right there in your own words.
this is holy and perhaps difficult to understand if one doesn't believe in a God
Didn't take long. 'You don't believe like me so you're not as smart/perceptive/understanding etc etc.'
I hate to burst your bubble, but I've suffered, I've seen suffering, I know people can come out the other side stronger and changed for the better. It's the ones that fall by the wayside that concern me, and there are many many more of those. The difference between me and you is I don't think they deserved it. I still don't believe in god.
how do you know there is no God?
How do you know there is? How do you know there is no Zeus. Or Apollo. Or Baal. Or Ganesh. Or Thor. Or Odin. Or Zoroaster. Or Hera. Or Ra. Or Anubis. Or Reshef. Or Seth. Or Korrawi. Or Vishnu. Or Prithivi. Or Freyja. Or Isis. Or Loki. Or Horus. Or Athena.Or Asclepius. Or Cerberus. Or Cupid. Or Posiedon. Or Eros. Or Aphrodite. Or Hades. Or Helios. Or Hephaistos. Or Hermes.Or Juno. Or Janus. Or Jupiter. Or Pandora. Or Persephone. Or Saturn. Or Mars. Or Amaethon. Or Aonghus. Or Dagda. Or Anu. Or Belenus. Or Balor. Or Aegir. Or Balder. Or Fenrir. Or Heimdall. Or Potrimpo. Or Svantovit. Or Tapio. Or Bunyil. Or Bacchus. Or Gurrangatch. Or Hephaestus. Or Maui. Or Hine-nui-te-po. Or Morpheus. Or Nai-No-Kami. Or Quetzalcoatl. Or Wotan. Or Xolotl. Or Artemis. Or porcelain teapot orbiting the sun?
how do you know that all of what i believe is just nonsense?
Because it is.
would you be so arrogant as to say that yours is the only true mode of thinking and the rest of the world be damned? very interesting...more and more i can see you as a religious zealot in a past life...but, then...i don't know...
No I wouldn't, but why did you ask the quesion if you already believed the answer was what you wanted it to be? Why would you be so arrogant as to assume if something good happens to you, that you deserve it and the universe thinks so? You think I'm arrogant for something I didn't say and don't believe, but you think you know that AIDs victims deserved it. You're the one who thinks they know how the universe works dear. Pot. Kettle. Black.
hmmm...you find my views to be reprehensible...yet...so many who have taken on my views have found a peace so profound that folks like you don't make a dent in their joy...
None of which does anything to prove that your ideas are not morally repugnant and bankrupt. Hey, as long as they feel ok though, right?
by the way...i don't believe God says that bad should happen...i believe God says, what did you learn from this, what choice will you make now that you've experienced this....we choose what we go through...
Yes, but what you believe makes about as much sense as me supergluing my scrotum to an industrial sized jackhammer and hitting the 'Turbo' switch.
You are a genuinely disturbing individual.
Just about to post but saw there was more. The stupid, it burns...
it does seem insane doesn't it? so did the thought that the world is not flat and that yes, we can fly to the moon...
Oh that old ploy. Boring. The difference was that evidence showed that these weren't true. Real, no fooling, scientific evidence.
we just don't know for sure do we? this is why i'll never call you an idiot...you make good points...i just know what settles in my gut as making perfect sense...
I suffer from no such scruples though. You don't make any good points, and the fact that you are simply going with your gut, well, it pretty much explains everything.
as for the rapist/victim question...my guess is that that experience has been had by both, now on to another experience...
Your guess? Your fucking guess? You base the belief on rape victims deserving it on a guess. Sorry Skeptico. Mora, you're an idiot. No sorry, I take it back. You're insane. It's frightening that people like you are free to roam in a civilised society.
probably bullshit, but again...makes perfect sense to me...
There's no probably about it. It's a big fresh steaming pile with straw sticking out and everything.
Get help. Seriously, get some real medical help.
Posted by: Jimmy_Blue | March 09, 2007 at 04:29 PM
wow...you certainly are the judgmental one...too much to read and quite frankly, i don't care...you are so arrogant as to put words in my mouth...
i don't think rape is deserved...i think each individual soul chooses what they experience...you choose not to believe this, fine...
where is the evidence to prove your views? where is the unequivocal proof that justifies your sense of the lack of responsibility we all have in our world?
you have none...
i teach my children right from wrong...i teach them compassion, even to those who might do them a wrong turn...i teach there are consequences to their actions...i believe we are here to learn from our experiences rather than to run around woeing our conditions and wallowing in pity over ourselves or others...compassion and pity are not the same thing...
you may judge all you want...and you will...predictable...
as for medical help, you're absolutely right...i've got this pain in my lower region...oh, sorry...folks like you proving to be a real pain in the ass of humanity
i have to wonder...how happy are you in your world? do you blame others for your issues/problems?
bring it...
Posted by: mora | March 09, 2007 at 05:15 PM
hmmmm....question for you jimmy crack corn...what contributions have you made to society that should put you on such a high pedestal as to judge so wantonly the views of another human being? because i believe as i do i must hence be insane and dangerous to society...wow, quite the statement from one who knows nothing about me...is this how you normally operate? i register folks to vote, i volunteer my time with an organization sending medical supplies to clinics worldwide, third world kind of stuff, i work with communities to empower them to take charge of what is going on in their cities, pay attention to what their government is up to...i work with the youth to empower them and realize their own beauty, their own uniqueness...we bring children together and give them an open forum in which they discuss what choices they have should someone approach them with drugs, for sex, i've worked with children to teach them self defense, especially if their attacker be an adult...in which case, they should run, run, run...my segway right on outta here...i have two little girls right now who just want to go for a walk, talk about their day and be...i think i'll enjoy a bit of nonjudgmental pureness...you have obviously misplaced yours somewhere...but, then, you and i chose to have this interaction...thank you for whatever purpose you've served for me...i'm sure it'll come clear why when it's supposed to...chances seem good you'll come right back with an attack...as i said, bring it...it's serving a purpose you obviously need served for whatever reason that may come clear to you now...or later...
take it easy...oh and namaste'...
Posted by: mora | March 09, 2007 at 05:33 PM
It's people like mora that continue to convince me that woos are apathetic nihilists who don't have a shred of compassion for other people. They lack even the most basic emotions, and use astoundingly twisted "logic" to justify inaction, or even tearing down everything we've accomplished.
Sorry about the foam. I just can't stand people like that, especially when they try to project their attitudes onto us.
Posted by: Bronze Dog | March 09, 2007 at 08:08 PM
oh...so when y'all spout your views it's simply interaction, but when, as you say, a "woo" spouts hers, she's projecting her attitude upon you...pure victim talk...
run with it...feel the wind through your hair as you take no responsibility...
apathetic...ha...ha...ha...ain't no apathy here...i'm out there doing things for my community, for my people, for my family, for my friends, for people i don't even know...that's not apathy, that's taking a stand...
no shred of compassion? ask the many i've helped in their times of need...i have compassion but i take it a step further...i listen and then i act and encourage action on their part...live, breathe, move on...mourn for a while but learn from this, take something from it...make it work for you even as it has threatened to destroy you...
a nihilist...dude, do you know what that word means? i'm as far from a nihilist as one can get...but, twist the meaning to work for your argument as you feel you must...
hell, i won't be so arrogant or ignorant as to boldly state my thoughts as "truth", there are too many unknowns, too many layers left to uncover...i just know what has brought peace to me...
have you ever had an adult man prod and poke you as a child? i have...and then some...and for a long time there i was as lost and angry as any child of abuse can be...bitter, unable to get past the "why me" of what happened...and not being able to get past that disallowed me from getting past anything else...until i one day took responsibility...i decided i would use this experience and be the better for it...i've found that those suffering from abuse are more apt to seek solace and advice from others who have gone through what they did and survived...it's my gut feeling that i experienced my abuse so that i could turn around and help others going thru what i did...i took responsibility...
if i'm as wrong as the day is long...who cares...in the end, i made my "bad" a "good" and i did so by taking on the Law of Attraction...i kept attracting bad and ugly happenings into my world until the day i said i was worthy of better...it is my birthright to be happy...from this moment i decided i would use my pain to help others...the day i decided this, indeed a window opened...this happened years before "The Secret"...but then, the thoughts presented in this movie have been around since ancient times...
it's folks like yourselves who sit in your chairs judging everyone that convince folks like me we're on the right track...
oh...and if you truly are so content in your way of thinking, why the incessant need to degrade and insult? this is typical behavior of one who feels threatened, as though his/her views aren't as solid in their mind as they'd like to think...
folks like you give folks like me encouragement...
thanks...
Posted by: mora | March 09, 2007 at 10:25 PM
Mora.
Anything I've accused you of believing has come right from your own words. There is no hiding from what you have stated you believe no matter how much you try and worm your way out of it.
you are so arrogant as to put words in my mouth...
I have put no words in your mouth, I quote you whenever I comment upon your statements. It is there for all to see. It seems abundantly clear that you haven't put much if any thought into the consequences or nature of your beliefs. That is your problem not mine, until you start preaching it to others in a public forum.
i don't think rape is deserved...i think each individual soul chooses what they experience...
So, if you choose something you don't deserve it if it comes? Do you even think about what you are writing? You state:
the little girl who was raped so brutally...is it possible that in a past life she was a rapist?
If that isn't meant to imply she deserved it, then what is?
You state:
consider for a moment the idea that the law of attraction doesn't just operate on a one person at a time level...it can also operate on a much larger scale...self fulfilling prophesies believed in by the masses...for example: it is well known and accepted that the children of God are to be persecuted...the Old Testament states this clearly...so, to the Jewish community, Nazi, Germany is just one of many atrocities they've had to deal with...
So, they brought it on themselves. Or, they deserve it. These are your words, not mine Mora.
where is the evidence to prove your views?
Which views? When you provide me with the evidence for yours, then maybe we can get on to mine.
where is the unequivocal proof that justifies your sense of the lack of responsibility we all have in our world?
This is called a strawman argument. It means you are attacking an argument I haven't made. For clarity, I do not believe that we should have no responsibility for our actions, that is the exact opposite of what I believe. Your views however do encourage people not to take responsibility for their actions, as I have argued and shown repeatedly in previous posts.
folks like you proving to be a real pain in the ass of humanity
Oh yeah, us people who believe in reason, logic, the scientific medicine, evidence based decision making, common sense; we've really held the world back. And you woo and religious people have given us so much haven't you?
i have to wonder...how happy are you in your world? do you blame others for your issues/problems?
Very happy, thanks for asking. I don't blame anyone else because I know that when things go wrong, it's more than likely my responsibility and if not, then it is the responsibility of some person directly involved. I don't blame a past life, I don't blame someone else's past life, I don't blame the universe, and I don't think that it's because I didn't want it enough. On the other hand, that is the very central premise of your 'secret', isn't it? Please do stop projecting your problems on me.
hmmmm....question for you jimmy crack corn...
Oh how very droll. Perhaps you should do this for a living.
what contributions have you made to society that should put you on such a high pedestal as to judge so wantonly the views of another human being?
If you don't want to be judged, why did you come on this forum posting your drivel? However, since you want to partake in a 'I'm a good ciizen, what are you?' pissing contest I'll briefly oblige since it seems to be important to you.
I did volunteer work with teenagers, many of them underprivileged and from broken homes, for 7 years; which enabled them to hike, camp, fly powered aircraft, fly gliders solo, parachute, take overseas trips to Africa, Canada, Germany, Gibraltar, the USA. It enabled them to learn subjects they weren't taught in school, encouraged leadership, self discipline, self reliance, self confidence. I too taught them self defence, but not just to run away, actually how to defend themselves against adults. My work helped allow them to experience settings and situations many of them would not have seen otherwise such as formal dinners, air force bases, flights on military aircraft, target rifle shooting, a wide range of sporting and adventure activities, and most importantly kept them off the streets and out of crime. I arranged for them to recieve anti-drug abuse lectures from the police, to participate in local community improvement projects, to raise money for charity and encouraged them to remain in school and go on to higher education. I served in the RAF volunteer reserve as a commissioned officer for 3 years. I've helped raise over $12,000 for a deaf childrens charity. As a teenager I did volunteer community work in my local area. I am currently part of my community outreach program for my place of work. I'm a qualified first aider. How am I doing? Of course what fails to escape you is that none of what you or I have done has any bearing on the fact that you are full of shit. It is completely irrelevant and the fact that you brought it up speaks volumes.
because i believe as i do i must hence be insane and dangerous to society
Not entirely. What you believe is dangerous, it's how you act on it that would make you insane and dangerous. Your clearly stated beliefs abdicate all responsibility for actions either good or bad. You have even stated you don't believe people should face the consequences of their actions. That is a dangerous belief. What is truly frightening about you is that you do not seem capable of understanding the consequences of what you believe and have stated, and you don't even seem clear on what you yourself have said.
i think i'll enjoy a bit of nonjudgmental pureness...you have obviously misplaced yours somewhere
If I may steal a phrase from Tom Foss, yeabuhwha?
thank you for whatever purpose you've served for me...i'm sure it'll come clear why when it's supposed to
Your welcome, and I certainly hope so.
it's serving a purpose you obviously need served for whatever reason that may come clear to you now...or later...
My only purpose is to draw people's attention to the lunacy, vacuity, emptiness, stupidity and downright bollocks of the woo and the religious. You've helped admirably, so thanks.
Posted by: Jimmy_Blue | March 09, 2007 at 10:38 PM
oh...and if you truly are so content in your way of thinking, why the incessant need to degrade and insult? this is typical behavior of one who feels threatened, as though his/her views aren't as solid in their mind as they'd like to think...
Yes that's right Mora, if we ridicule your beliefs and arguments it is because we feel threatened. It's not because maybe your beliefs are monumentally stupid and deserve ridicule. There you go with the arrogance again.
You say you don't know if your beliefs are true, but it's nothing more than paying humility lip service.
Posted by: Jimmy_Blue | March 09, 2007 at 10:41 PM
I thought about trying to respond to more, but it's like a black hole of insanity. Mora, you realize that God, in the way you're using the term, is incompatible with past lives, right?
Jesus Haploid Tapdancing Christ, do you people work from a script? Every single woo I talk to brings up the flat Earth hypothesis. Guess what, mora: the reason we don't believe the Earth is flat, the reason we put men on the moon, is science. It's not because we wished for it, it's not because we felt positively, it's because we worked at it. The Earth isn't flat, not because someone wished for a round Earth, but because the laws of physics forced it into a roughly spherical shape. There's no 'probably' about it.Posted by: Tom Foss | March 09, 2007 at 10:49 PM
threw my head back and laughed at these latest posts...laughed hard...again i say...there are consequences to the actions we choose...we do have a responsibility for all that we do, all that we experience...and...i don't have evidence to prove my theories...just what i feel...so, i guess, since i have no evidence, i'll never see yours...good one...
you are a sneaky, wily bunch aren't you...
i do notice something though...
you seem so mad at me for my views...and you sound so high and mighty...incredibly arrogant...
gee...my feelings are hurt...
Posted by: mora | March 09, 2007 at 11:10 PM
Mora, I'm now wishing very hard for you to go away and take your stupid with you. If you keep posting, what does that mean about the 'secret'?
Once again, whilst you are throwing the word arrogant around. You believe that you understand the universe on a feeling. That is arrogance dear. As a follower of science, I understand that we are, relatively speaking, only just beginning to understand the universe, we've only scratched the surface. Who is the arrogant one here? You believe that detailed and critical examination of your belief is to be laughed at. Is that not arrogance? You believe your personal life experience makes you immune to criticism. Is that not arrogance?
Lets say this again in the vain hope it gets through the miasma of insanity that surrounds you. Your beliefs say that whatever happens to you, or whatever you do, is the result of the choices you made in a past life you have led but that you could not influence and are not aware of. Hence, you have no responsibility for your actions in this life because the consequences are only felt in another life. You yourself clearly stated that people should not face the consequences of their actions in this life.
so, i guess, since i have no evidence, i'll never see yours...good one...
you are a sneaky, wily bunch aren't you...
This is one of the worst attempted topic switches I've seen. This thread is about the 'secret'. Hence its about your views, not mine. The fact that you admit you have no evidence is brilliant, you've done all our work for us. But then to complain I am not going to show you evidence about my views is laughably pathetic. This is not about my views, and to repeat remedial lessons, you have to prove something exists, I do not have to prove it doesn't. As for my views on science, you use the products of science every day, how much more evidence do you need?
gee...my feelings are hurt...
Aww diddums. Of course, if your beliefs are so fragile that having them questioned causes hurt feelings, maybe you should re-examine them.
Posted by: Jimmy_Blue | March 09, 2007 at 11:33 PM
I agree with most of what you said. You are forgetting one "caveat" that many "The Secreters" use. Thoughts INDEED always become reality, just not always in the form you expect.
Posted by: David | March 10, 2007 at 12:05 AM
Excellent takedowns as always, folks.
I love the admission of no evidence and blatant shifting of the burden of proof from mora. Proves that all she can do is play rhetorical games, rather than actually contribute anything.
Posted by: Bronze Dog | March 10, 2007 at 07:32 AM
Hi,
Have never been hanging out on blogs or forums. Just wonder what is the point of wasting your time for such meaningless things as arguing with someone whose views are different from yours? I am just so surprised at how many people don't value their time. Are you people so healthy, wealthy, happy etc. that you have so much free time to write such lengthy posts? Or do you think the value of this blog can be increased in such a way?
Cheers,
Antony
Posted by: Antony | March 11, 2007 at 05:53 AM
Antony,
You do understand irony, don't you?
Did it ever occur to you that conversation, debate, exercising the old grey matter, might actually be enjoyable for people whose attention span is longer than until the next advert break? What's the matter, not enough explosions for you?
Posted by: Jimmy_Blue | March 11, 2007 at 10:27 AM
Antony, just because truth, science, knowledge, and the advancement of life on Earth are meaningless to you doesn't mean we're similarly apathetic.
Posted by: Bronze Dog | March 11, 2007 at 11:29 AM
Wow, this Mora individual is among the most vacuous twits I have ever seen. I love how people try to justify evil by citing "past lives". Even if reincarnation were fact, and I don't claim that it is or isn't, how does that explain or justify the rape of innocent children? Oh, right, they aren't "innocent", because they probably made a big boo-boo somewhere along the incarnation line. WTF? I can laugh at Mora, but I fear for her children, being raised by such a mental midget with such a limited understanding of morality and ethics.
Posted by: Ais | March 11, 2007 at 01:03 PM
If I'm paranoid, I wonder if all this isn't an attempt to sabotage the philosophies found on websites like adbusters.org or anxietyculture.com. You can decide the universe is a friendly place. You can let go of being responsible, responsibility is over rated, there's a zillion things you aren't responsible for. Scarcity is a myth. If you want to undermine the message that scarcity is a myth, you create a whacky new age movement that claims the same thing but with a whacky superstitious, 1970's trippin' on acid in a van in sunny California, wearing robes and acting all terminally joyous and wigged out, spin. Then the next time you say, "scarcity is a myth" they can say, "oh, a new age nut".
Posted by: Vosh | March 11, 2007 at 09:48 PM
God (or the universe) answers all prayers (or requests). But sometimes the answer is "No".
Posted by: Marti | March 12, 2007 at 09:49 AM
Thus rendering the hypothesis unfalsifiable.
Posted by: Bronze Dog | March 12, 2007 at 10:03 AM
That being the case, how do you know this Marti?
If you don't know, then why bother believing, its wasted effort?
If you do, where's your evidence?
And really, what would be the point of asking prayers or requests of your higher power?
And what Bronze Dog said.
Posted by: Jimmy_Blue | March 12, 2007 at 10:43 AM
Oh, and does anyone have the slightest clue what Vosh is talking about?
Posted by: Jimmy_Blue | March 12, 2007 at 10:44 AM
No idea. He's really schizo in that post. I wonder if he expects the mass of the Earth to increase to accommodate this alleged lack of scarcity. If so, why hasn't anyone created and demonstrated a free energy machine?
I also wonder what the [frell] he's talking about with responsibility. There's a lot we aren't responsible for, but I fail to see how that makes us responsible for nothing. I guess he believes that the only being responsible for anything is God or something. Suppose if God existed that might be true, since he'd be the one who programmed us. But that's getting into nasty territory.
As for the universe being a friendly space... well, I don't think we should waste money rocketing him up into the vast vacuum of space just to prove a point.
Posted by: Bronze Dog | March 12, 2007 at 12:45 PM
I don't think we should waste money rocketing him up into the vast vacuum of space just to prove a point.
On the contrary - where do I donate?
Posted by: Rockstar Ryan | March 12, 2007 at 01:04 PM
I was joking dude, chill. LOL
Like, what can it hurt to ask? The worst that can happen is you get told, "no". Maybe you'll get lucky and get what you want.
I try to keep an open mind to all possibilities, while remaining realistic.
Posted by: Marti | March 12, 2007 at 01:06 PM
Sorry, Marti: It's hard to detect sarcasm online sometimes, especially since woos can say silly things with a straight face.
I sometimes try to coax traffic lights into changing green with The Force, but I don't sell books or DVDs describing my technique... at least not until I manage to pass the Randi Challenge or something.
Posted by: Bronze Dog | March 12, 2007 at 01:16 PM
My bad, I should have put an "LOL" after my remark to clarify tongue in cheek. No harm done. Best wishes with the traffic lights! LOL :)
Posted by: Marti | March 12, 2007 at 01:45 PM
My understanding is that the Law of Attraction is an actual scientific law . See Mike Hernacki's book, " The Ultimate Secret to getting Absolutely Everything you Want" Check out Chapter 8, page 65.
GM1M2
F = R2
Posted by: Carrie | March 12, 2007 at 03:30 PM
Carrie:
In which scientific journals can I read about this scientific law?
Posted by: Skeptico | March 12, 2007 at 03:45 PM
Carrie, I think you should actually check out a basic physics book (the one written by Isaac Asimov is a pretty good one for the layman).
You seem to have written out a garbled version of Newton's Law of Universial Gravitation:
F = G (m1 * m2)/ r*r ... see:
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/grav.html
Posted by: HCN | March 12, 2007 at 05:25 PM
She's right, though. That is the Law of Attraction, and it sure as heck is a scientific law, like gravity.
Mainly, as HCN pointed out, because it's the Law of Gravitational Attraction. It only says "like attracts like" inasmuch as matter attracts other matter. It certainly doesn't say that wishes and positive thoughts attract material goods.
Posted by: Tom Foss | March 12, 2007 at 06:40 PM
Apologies Marti, but which part was the joke? God existing, or that he would say no? Or both?
I checked your website and well, it seems to be borderline woo in there at times.
What is certainly funny is that woo comments are so ridiculous that sometimes we can't distinguish them from a joke.
I think that says it all.
Posted by: Jimmy_Blue | March 12, 2007 at 07:27 PM
mora,
what kind of butterfly-filled, candy-covered forest, and sunshine and rainbows land do you live in?
perhaps you could chew on this for a bit?
okay ~ the secret says i attracted my life's tragedies because i'm a negative energy attracting magnet). Hmmmmmmmm........
dropped off by my aunt at an orphange with my twin sister as infants after my parents and three siblings were killed in a car crash in 1969....
separated from my twin, and raised in horrific foster care homes...
raped first at age 5, removed from that foster care home...raped at age 6 at the next one...raped at age 8 at the next one...ran away, was found by social services and placed in a group home for children where physical/mental/sexual abuse was more common than not...
it was a lock down ward...and i never committed a crime!...i was a straight-A student...
graduated with honors from a residetial school for wayward teens...and won a college scholarship...
went to college and was attacked by a gang of frat boys...in a coma for a month...
finished my master's degree in psychology, my PhD in pschology, and a post-grad certificate in applied behavior analysis...
married to the love of my life for 11 years and he died in the world trade center bombing on 9/11...
gave birth seven months later...
my child as diagnosed with autism at age 3...
there's more ~ but i think you get the picture...
it is absolutely ridiculous that people are buying into this bullshit! what could i have possible done in a past life (which never actualy existed anyway) to warrant any of that? were my childhood tears the negative vibes that the universal frequency towers picked up to keep layin'it on?
when i closed my eyes and wished upon a shooting star when i was five, because i really, really wanted a good mommy and daddy, why didn't i get them? was it because i was merely "wishing" and "praying" for them, as opposed to living like i already had them, like the secret says you must do? i think not.
did i become successful because i merely wished for it? Hell no! I worked my ass off putting myself through 8 years of school, and i'll take all the credit for that, thank you very much, because i'm quite sure i was getting no universal frequency help!
nuff said.
Posted by: Anna | March 12, 2007 at 07:44 PM
Either the no capitals/lots of ellipses disease is catching, or Mora has a particularly graphic imagination and is arguing with herself.
I don't mean to baselessly cast doubt on your life story if you're legit, Anna, because no one should have to go through all that. But it seems strange that a poster who already has demonstrated a propensity for sock puppetry would receive such a biting response from someone else with the same distinctive style. Please, use proper punctuation, if only to differentiate yourself from Mora's overwhelming vapidity.
Posted by: Tom Foss | March 13, 2007 at 12:39 AM
Wow, okay so I was just looking at stuff about the secret because I like many sane people heard about it and immidiatly thought it was utter bullshit. So you mean to say every bad thing that has ever happened to me is my own damn fault? Wow.... my eyes are so open now. I guess this means I can finally go win the lottery like I deserve to. Oh! Even better, the dissapointing bits of my anatomy can grow or shrink as I have always wanted!
Yeah, but then the little voice in the back of my head screams "Fucking bullshit!" and I guess that just ruined the whole living positive thing. Damn, those DVDs wand "books" should have warning lables for people who actually analyve and think things through instead of just seeing what they wish were real. Always a catch.
Love the blog by the way. ;)
Posted by: Carl | March 13, 2007 at 02:24 AM
well tom, i won't waste too much time posting a response to yours...
but i will say this: i very rarely use caps, and quite frequently use ellipses...and didn't even notice (until you so poignantly pointed this out)that mora wrote using a similar writing style...
and i do believe that you actually did mean to cast doubt, but i'm not too awfully bothered by this, since i lived it and am proud of what i've become...
and mora received such a biting response from me because i found her posts particulary offensive and victim-blaming, while most of the rest made me giggle, if not laugh out loud...
and i need not change my writing style to differentiate my thoughts and beliefs from moras, because they're obviously quite different...i also need not change it to take the edge of of your anal retention, to add some zest to my post, or to please you.
Posted by: Anna | March 13, 2007 at 02:25 AM
so i dolled out 7 bucks for a used copy of the secret...and this morning it was my "intent" to start my wish list! i even set my alarm clock for 3 am to get a good jump start! i meditated first (one of the secret's must-do's) and then started writing my wish list to submit to the universe's dream catalog!
gosh, i'm *so* excited! by this time tomorrow things will beautifully and masterfully unfold and i'll have every tangible and non-tangible thing i ever fantasized about!
does anyone have the address to which to mail this thing? better yet, since snail mail is so slow, and fed ex can be somewhat unreliable, maybe i can fax it, or email it...
i know the secret says i just have to *ask* for it (preferably out loud, but only once)and believe it (over and over), so maybe mailing/faxing/emailing isn't really necessary...i just wanna cover all bases to seal the deal...and keep a paper trail in case i decide to bring legal action in a civil suit against the self-professed gurus who are raping the wallets of many band-wagon jumpers like me...
i've only been working on my wish list for a coupla of hours, but i've already ordered a carribeean vacation for four, a 32,000 square foot glass mansion in hawaii, a cute lil' bungalow in aspen, a pony, a 54-inch gold-plated plasma screen HDTV, a new Bentley (and one for all my family members and friends), a cure for autism (and all other diseases that suffers so callously wished for), a complete overhaul of special education curriculums in our nations schools, an end to world hunger, and most importantly world peace.
now i'm gonna close my eyes, think real hard (until it hurts) and act like i already have those things...dang...how long did the secret say i had to do that for before the genie delivers?
i'm so excited that i'm taking the day off so i can be here when it happens!
Posted by: Anna | March 13, 2007 at 03:16 AM
To Mora:
If you found something that means something to you - that works for you - be careful of who you discuss it with. The exchange between you and some of the people of this board reminded me of a passage from the Book of Matthew [watch the "skeptics" sit and spin at the mention of THE BIBLE] : ). Matthew 7:6 says [NLT] "Don't give what is holy to unholy people. Don't give pearls to swine! They will trample the pearls, then turn and attack you". The remakable thing to me is that these "skeptics" probably don't believe in the Bible either. Yet, the words of Jesus Christ have been proven here by the very skeptics that will deny he even existed and his knowledge of things human [thanks skeptics for fulfilling the Lord's words].
There are many consistencies between "The Secret" and things written in the New Testament [that is regarding belief and prayer]. I will leave you with on last thought as presented by Jesus Christ. He said "if they don't believe, then shake the dust [of their town] off your feet". You should do the same. Leave these people to wallow in all thier "knowledge".
And the others:
Funny all you folks citing the "law of gravity". Do you understand the law of gravity? If I drop something it will fall down? Really? What if I dropped a rock half way between here and Mars. Which way would it fall then? You don't really understand as much as you pretend. Have a great day, folks.
Oh, yea. And read the Bible. The Lord says to ask for wisdom and he will give it.
Posted by: Roy | March 13, 2007 at 06:12 AM
Funny all you folks citing the "law of gravity". Do you understand the law of gravity? If I drop something it will fall down? Really? What if I dropped a rock half way between here and Mars. Which way would it fall then? You don't really understand as much as you pretend. Have a great day, folks.
Pardon me for summarizing, since I thought it was understood that we were talking in Earth's circumstances.
Halfway between here and Mars, assuming that Earth and Mars were lined up: It would move ever so slowly towards Earth (the inverse square law really reduces it quickly), at least initially, since Earth has more mass. Conditions would likely change as the planets moved.
As for the rest of the stuff: God willing to aid you in beating the Randi Challenge, or at least rig some dice rolls for me? Got a brick of 36d6 (36 regular 6-sided dice) handy at my house for just such an occasion.
Posted by: Bronze Dog | March 13, 2007 at 06:29 AM
Oh, yeah: Forgot to mention the Sun: That'd also pull the rock inward, though it would by no means guarantee that the Earth would intercept it.
Posted by: Bronze Dog | March 13, 2007 at 06:31 AM
The Bible also says "Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." When you prove the existence of God or the reality of the Secret, then we'll believe them. Until then, it sure looks like your pearls are nothing more than costume jewelry, and tacky ones at that.
Well, then, assuming it didn't get caught in the gravitational pull of one of the planets anytime soon, chances are it would begin to fall toward the sun. If it has the right amount of lateral motion, though, it'll move in an elliptical path around the sun, something we scientists like to call "orbit." I seem to have missed the place where it says "ask for a bicycle, and he will give it, though." I must have missed the part of the New Testament where Jesus says "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to explain. For verily, I say unto you, if you wish hard enough, then God will provide you with whatsoever you desire. And yea, God has bad hearing, so He may not get thy request exactly right, but it will be fulfilled." I must have missed the Psalm that said "The Lord is my catalog, I shall get what I want. He maketh me vacations to green pastures: he leadeth me to tropical waters. He replenisheth my wallet: He leadeth me in the paths of wealthiness for His name's sake. Yea, though I walk through the Valley in the shadow of the Hollywood Hills, I will fear no spending limit: for thou art with me. Thy card and thy cash they comfort me."Posted by: Tom Foss | March 13, 2007 at 08:20 AM
Skeptico replies to Roy
Re: Funny all you folks citing the "law of gravity". Do you understand the law of gravity? If I drop something it will fall down? Really? What if I dropped a rock half way between here and Mars. Which way would it fall then?
As I wrote in The “Law” of Attraction (Not), the Universal Law of Gravitation explains this precisely.
So what was your point, again?
Posted by: Skeptico | March 13, 2007 at 09:03 AM
Do you understand the law of gravity? If I drop something it will fall down? Really? What if I dropped a rock half way between here and Mars. Which way would it fall then?
I love how this dickhead thought he dropped a bomb on everyone only to have it blow up in his hands.
Well Roy, you got your answers. Any other attempts to be a smart-ass will be summarily handed back to you.
Posted by: Rockstar Ryan | March 13, 2007 at 10:16 AM
Roy has spent too much time playing with his "toy".
Hey buddy, next time they have the lesson on gravity in your special-ed class, tell them to slow down so that you can take better notes with your crayon.
This will undoubtedly help you to make better sense of the world you live in. If you don't think that lesson will come your way again, then its probably best you leave the "thinking" and stuff to someone else. There is however, a crowd that I think you will fit in with...
I think they hang out at www.nickjr.com. Hope this has been helpful. =)
Posted by: Whoracle | March 13, 2007 at 10:58 AM
Whoa, come on now Whoracle. Im all for berating those what deserve it. But lumping the poor special ed kids in with him? I find that especially insulting since I myself had to be in special ed.
Just because someone has a learning disability doesn’t mean that they are ignorant. Now Roy on the other hand is ignorant. That he has proven without a doubt but don’t lump him in with people with honest to goodness disabilities. That’s just uncouth.
And Roy, are you calling us swine? Was that a shot? That was a shot wasn’t it? Why do you religious nuts think it’s your duty to go out of your way to tell everyone how much better you are than them? What the hell happened to “Love thy neighbor”? I’ve never gone to your church and pissed in the holly water. Why do you lot keep coming to boards and blogs like this to insult people.... people who are simply discussing somthing amongst themselves?
Posted by: Carl | March 13, 2007 at 12:04 PM
one hour ago,i was desperetly looking for the countain of the secret,but now am a little bit confused and at the same time angry,i thought that it was a new thing,scientific law that can help the humanity to get through its issues but it seems that i was wrong,its seems to be some kind of religion,or actually it is summary of all religions all over the world from juiv to islam.please explain it to me exactly,if it is a secret so why i know it before,am taking it as a life style before.
its so clear that i am confused so pleeeeeease explain it to me easily .
Posted by: razan | March 13, 2007 at 01:07 PM
This calls for a "yeahbuhwa...?"
Could you re-ask that question in English?
Posted by: Rockstar Ryan | March 13, 2007 at 03:30 PM
Oh fantastic, I've been waiting for some god bothering nutter to bring up the bible ever since I finished reading Misquoting Jesus by Bart Ehrman. This is a man who was an evangelical christian, and is a respected scholar in the textual criticism field. I highly recommend this book to everyone here.
Anyway Roy, do you believe that the bible is the literal word of god?
It's interesting that you quote passages from Matthew. For instance, did you know that both Matthew and Luke are believed to have based their gospels on the gospel of Mark, but that where they don't like Mark's version of events, they change it?
Did you know that the last 12 verses of Mark in many English versions of tthe new testament don't actually appear in some of the earliest surviving manuscripts of the gospel, and were almost certainly added much later by a scribe, not by the original author, and were likely not in the original gospel?
Did you know that the very well known verse (John 8:7) in John where Jesus asks 'Let he who is without sin among you be the first to cast a stone at her.' does not exist in the early manuscripts and was almost certainly added centuries after the gospel was written, by someone other than the original author?
Or that Luke 22:44 - In his anguish Jesus began to pray more earnestly, and his sweat became like great drops of blood falling to the ground. Is not in the early manuscripts?
Did you know that comments scribes have made as notes on the sides of early new testament manuscripts may have made it into the new testament as we know it today?
Did you know we have new testament manuscripts where early scribes have written in the margin to admonish other scribes for changing the text from previous versions?
Did you know that in some manuscripts, in Mark 1:41 Jesus is described as feeling compassion as he heals a leper, but in some he is described as feeling angry, and angry is likely to have been the original text?
Did you know that in his edition of the Greek new testament (published in 1707 after 30 years work) John Mill noted 30,000 textual variations amongst all the manuscripts he had used, and he didn't have access to all the manuscripts available to modern scholars? He also didn't note all of the variations he had found,leaving out changes of word order for instance.
Did you know that some textual variations actually call into question citing the bible as evidence of Jesus' divinity? For example, Johan Wettstein discovered that in one manuscript, the Codex Alexandrinus, the verse 1 Tim 3:16 (often used to show the new testament speaks of Jesus as god) which has been said to speak of Christ as 'God made manifest in the flesh' actually reads as Christ 'who was made manifest in the flesh'. The Greek letters that spell the word 'who' had been misread as an abbreviation for the Greek word for god, because a line had bled through from the other side of the page in the manuscript.
I could go on and on. But I don't need to. If you want to cite the bible to prove something, you're an idiot. It is not the literal word of god, it is a book written by humans, for humans, interpreted by humans and then copied and re-copied by humans. It is full of mistakes. We do not have the original texts of the new testament. What we do have as fragments and complete manuscripts was written hundreds of years after Jesus.
That book by Ehrman rocks.
Sorry for taking this off-topic.
Posted by: Jimmy_Blue | March 13, 2007 at 04:38 PM
Fabulous! I've been wanting to get Ehrman's book, and this is just the motivation I need. It's about time we start treating the bible as we do other classical manuscripts. Scholars admit that passages of Aeschylus or Sophocles, et al., are either fragmentary, or emended by later copyists, etc, what have you, (and disagree on what the texts *should* say). The bible is in even worse shape, clearly - the question of authorship alone...the idea of it being the "literal word" of a deity is nonsensical. I still don't understand how someone can go through a seminary, learn to read Greek, and still believe that. Maybe they don't learn about manuscript traditions?? But anyway, back to Roy: are you suggesting that being a Xian is a litmus test for believing other random nonsense? Because maybe you're right....
Posted by: | March 13, 2007 at 05:04 PM
THE BOTTOM LINE IF YOUR A SCIENTIFIC SCEPTIC YOUR UNLIKELY TO BENEFIT FROM 'GOOD NEWS' UNLESS THERE IS 'SCIENTIFIC' EVIDENCE.
Posted by: Paul Khoury | March 13, 2007 at 09:57 PM
Newsflash for Paul Khoury: "your" and "you're" are different words with different meanings. And you chose the wrong one.
(Rolls eyes.)
Posted by: Skeptico | March 13, 2007 at 10:39 PM
Additional newsflash: If you don't care about scientific evidence, you're just lining yourself up for the next Nigerian email scam. That's about all The Secret really is: Something old rehashed countless times to make money.
To rephrase Khoury's "point": Researching is for losers, you have to arrive at the conclusion first and just positive think away all the criticisms. Defend your premisclusion at all costs, even your sanity!
Posted by: Bronze Dog | March 14, 2007 at 04:49 AM
All I have to say for all you skeptics is this: "Whatever you say and believe becomes your Reality". Simple as that.
If you don't believe, thats fine. If you do believe, thats great.
The best way to put it is using a famous quote from Henry Ford...
"If you think you can, you can; If you you think you can't, you can't---Either way you're right!
Posted by: Wizard | March 14, 2007 at 07:34 AM
Khoury:
You say that like it's a problem.
Wizard:
So, if I say and believe you're an idiot, it's reality. Well what do you know. And to back up your ridiculous argument, you've taken to quoting a well known anti-Semite. Give me one good reason why I should give a crap what Henry Ford says, and why him saying it makes it important? Other than it just agrees with your lunatic philosophy. Ford also said that 'international Jewish bankers' started World War II, was he right about that as well? He also believed he had been killed at the battle of Gettysburg in a former life. Oh, I see why 'secreters' might find him attractive now.
Is this really indicative of bleevers?
Posted by: Jimmy_Blue | March 14, 2007 at 07:55 AM
"Whatever you say and believe becomes your Reality"
[Standard argument] How about you try that at the next crosswalk? [/Standard argument]
"If you think you can, you can; If you you think you can't, you can't---Either way you're right!
How about we get one person to show that it can be done? There's a guy out there who'll pay a million dollars to see it. Under proper viewing conditions, of course.
Posted by: Bronze Dog | March 14, 2007 at 08:12 AM
Dear Mr Khoury,
It's not that sceptics are opposed to "good news"- good news is great! But if it's contradicted by actual knowledge, then maybe the news isn't so good! Maybe it's not news at all, but rather WISHFUL THINKING. If you think the bible is the literal word of god, then you don't understand what the bible actually is - either physically or as literature - you have to read it in its own cultural context. It makes just as much sense to think that the Iliad and the Odyssey are the word of god. I'm serious.
(btw, I don't know why my nickname isn't showing up on my posts. that's a mistake. I've also posted on the tomb of the unkown 1st century dude.) I'll sign off until I figure out the prob.
madaha
Posted by: | March 14, 2007 at 10:42 AM
Whatever you say and believe becomes your Reality.
You think this 101-year-old woman had it coming!? You are a complete waste of space, and quite an assbag.
Posted by: Rockstar Ryan | March 14, 2007 at 11:38 AM
Ahh, my ignorant minds.
I already knew you will be coming with nonsense and stupid remarks.
It just sad that people like you make our world what it is today, a living hell.
As for me I dont see the world that way, but many others do.
I will now leave this post for good cause I gain nothing from your responses and you closed-minded, no wait...programmed minded people will never break free.
Good-bye, forever............GODSPEED!
Posted by: Wizard | March 15, 2007 at 07:07 AM
Yeah, we make the world a horrible place by promoting things like vaccination to prevent crippling childhood disease, research into useful technology, gazing up at the stars and hoping to reach them, and so forth.
And Wizard certainly wouldn't want to know that I watch (horror of horrors) optimistic science fiction like Star Trek that typically conveys the message that science can someday solve all our problems and bring us together as a unified, compassionate people.
Yup, I think we can safely say that our cynical friend Wizard doesn't want any part of that.
Posted by: Bronze Dog | March 15, 2007 at 07:23 AM