Paroled To Sin Again

Don't you just love those stories about how some criminal found Jesus while in prison, and gave up his criminal ways?  No, me neither.  But the religious do.  Specifically, the Episcopal Church, who converted the convicted murderer James Tramel.  Tramel was convicted in the stabbing death of a homeless man in 1985, but apparently he found love for Jesus in prison, to the extent that the Episcopal Church ordained him as a priest.  The Church naturally lobbied for Tramel to be paroled, and only four months after his release in 2006, they made him rector of Trinity Episcopal Church in San Francisco. 

What a heartwarming story.  What could possibly go wrong?  Try sexual abuse of a parishioner:

It's [at the Church] that the victim said Tramel, who is married and has a young child, took advantage of her during counseling sessions.

"They didn't give an honest depiction of this man," said the victim, a 36-year-old San Francisco resident. The Chronicle does not identify victims of sexual abuse.

The diocese acknowledges that Tramel abused his power and committed sexual misconduct...

So, theists, remind me - where does morality come from, again? 

Comments

[Maronan]

Clearly, he didn't REALLY find Jebus in prison. It must have been a false conversion! If he'd really converted, he would be perfect and sit around petting puppies all day.

It should be obvious that he's not a True Christian™ at all!

"where does morality come from, again?"

Wal-Mart, in the junk section?

[Niobe]

So basically mass produced in china with too much phthalates.

[Beowulff]

At Maronan: Of course, for the "no True Christian after all" defense to work, the Episcopal Church will have to admit that they can't tell a True Christian from a fake one any more than the next guy. Hopefully, the parole committees will now realize this too.

[Susan B.]

"Hopefully, the parole committees will now realize this too."

Want to bet?

[Kay Goodnow]

Speaking of "foot and mounth" disease, the decision to ordain a murderer, make him a pastor and not inform the sheeple takes first place in the Idiot Cakewalk.

[Jeremy H]

At least in this instance the church is admitting it happened.
http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/2005-07-07/news/altar-ego/

[lionel]

Ha, Ha, Ha, Ha, Ha, Ha Ha,and Ha,Ha,Ha,Ha,.
The lord works in mysterious ways !!!!!!!!!!Doea anyone know what God, or Jesus looks like ?
Has anyone had a chat wih either of them lately--I don't mean just in your head, but face to face ?

[Citizen Deux]

The breach of patient / counselor protocols is not limited to members of the clergy. There is widespread abuse, especially among unlicensed practicioners. Many LGATs, cults and woo-ish folks prey upon their clinets in this fashion. This has less to do with God / Jebus / allah / or any other religious issue as it does with predatory behavior by an untrained counselor.

[Citizen Deux]

The breach of patient / counselor protocols is not limited to members of the clergy. There is widespread abuse, especially among unlicensed practicioners. Many LGATs, cults and woo-ish folks prey upon their clinets in this fashion. This has less to do with God / Jebus / allah / or any other religious issue as it does with predatory behavior by an untrained counselor.

[Citizen Deux]

Ahhhh!!!! Double post

[John Marley]

Citizen Deux:

This has less to do with God / Jebus / allah / or any other religious issue as it does with predatory behavior by an untrained counselor

That isn't Skeptico's point.

It isn't that religious belief caused this behavior. No one is claiming that.

It's that religious belief didn't prevent this behavior (and actually enabled it), which it should have, if xian claims have any veracity.

[yakaru]

Yup. The church ran around proclaiming the power of Jesus had converted a killer - that an evil man was saved by amazing grace and is now a different man to the one he was before.

Of course it is also worth noting that the church's twisted ideas on sexuality also create a culture of endemic perversion.

[techskeptic]

"Of course it is also worth noting that the church's twisted ideas on sexuality also create a culture of endemic perversion."

yak, while I agree, that is a pretty baseless claim don't you think? I mean even thinking of perverse priests, they are far outnumbered by kind, well intentioned ones, don't you think? Is the population of xian predators truly any different than any other religious or non-religious group? Is that data even available?

[Tom Foss]

yak, while I agree, that is a pretty baseless claim don't you think? I mean even thinking of perverse priests, they are far outnumbered by kind, well intentioned ones, don't you think?

Sure they are, but pedophile priests isn't where I went when I read that. Most branches of Christianity (and other religions, particularly the Abrahamic ones) treat sex and sexuality as sinful, dirty, disgusting things, cutting off any discussion or openness about sexual issues. What that ultimately leads to is a host of neuroses and other sex-centric problems in quite a lot of people who grow up with that kind of oppressive paradigm. When you suppress those natural urges, you tend to act on them in unhealthy ways when you finally give in.

It's the kind of thing we see in the abstinence-only sex ed studies. The kids who are just told not to have sex, it's dangerous and so on and so forth, are still having sex, but they're doing it in dumber, more dangerous, more unhealthy (physically and emotionally) ways.

If you happen to have a non-standard or non-strictly-heterosexual sexual appetite, then you're even further out of luck; not only is sex a shameful sin, but there's no way to even think about your particular attraction without feeling abnormal on top of it. Sex-positive kinksters and fetishists can find kink scenes and like-minded people with whom they can safely explore their particular turn-ons; people who never get out from under puritanical religious rules end up going overboard or undersafe when they finally indulge. Would Gary Aldridge have died in two wetsuits with a dildo up his ass if he hadn't treated his sex life like a dirty secret? If he'd been able to talk to his wife about his rubber fetish and desire for penetration, or if he'd been able to find some experienced partners online or in a kink scene? Would Larry Craig have been seeking an oral sex partner in an airport bathroom if he'd accepted his turn-ons and explored them in a healthy way?

Sure, some non-religious people still have hang-ups about sex, but the major religions tend to screw people up unnecessarily when it comes to screwing. It's not simply the extreme, obvious perversions like pedophilia, it's that prolonged starvation tends to end in binging. People who are discouraged from discussing and exploring their sexuality in a healthy manner will still explore it, but will do so under the cloaks of ignorance and shame, and go overboard on top of it.

[Techskeptic]

Tom,

I don't think I've ever seen you write like that. No links, nothing to back up these assertions?

Again I agree that this may be the case. But I don't think you have any data to show this cause and effect. A society, religious or not that outcasts people based on some human feature is destined to have people with that particular feature go into hiding.

I dont see how this translates to: religion causes this.

Would Gary Aldridge have died in two wetsuits with a dildo up his ass if he hadn't treated his sex life like a dirty secret?

I dont know. Do you? Tons of other people had the same upbringing as him without the eventual wetsuit.

Would Larry Craig have been seeking an oral sex partner in an airport bathroom if he'd accepted his turn-ons and explored them in a healthy way?

I dont know. Do you? Tons of other people had the same upbringing as him without the eventual wide stance.

AO sex edumacation doesnt make deviants, its just inneffective and doesn't educate.

So while I agree in my gut that this may be the case, I'd rather not think with my gut. Some people just have weird tastes. Craig may have had a good time one day with his father in a bathroom stall. It may have had nothing to do with religion at all.

The original premise was right, religion certainly doesnt prevent bizzare or immoral behavior. To say it causes it is an entirely different thing and I doubt very much that this claim can be backed up. I fully welcome efforts to prove me wrong (i'm not making the claim).

[Citizen Deux]

Whew! If Skeptico is positing that the church cleaned this individual of his sins, by virtue of its "holiness" then they forgot to check the file marked anit-social behavior.

I still contend that the problem is with the church having little to no control over individuals who exercise enormous power over their "clients". A church minister has enormous sawy with their flock and often times ends up fleecing them!

This would be answered by the faithful with "only god is without sin...yadda yadda". The point is that the church exercised no screening for his ordination. Why on earth would you permit a convicted felon to become a priest, while still in prison?

[yakaru]

Techskeptic,
Fair question, fair point, well put. My statement was vague and too general. (Tom's reply outlines where I was coming from.)

To say that religion *causes* abuse would be difficult to argue on a non-specific level, and actually I only asserted (and Tom argued) that it "creates a culture of endemic perversion." To argue that it causes abuse would require stats showing abuse rates higher in the priesthood than the general population. I guess, however, I implicitly did argue that, and in any case, I will admit to not having even questioned the issue.

Statistics are too vague to justify such an argument. But, I think it would be reasonable to argue, purely on psychological grounds, that a culture which sees sex as unnatural is more likely to produce perverted behaviors. Teenage pregnancy rates drop in proportion to the quality of sex education they receive, so it is also reasonable to suggest that this implies greater control over sexual behavior.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/12/071220231428.htm

Add to the that, for example, the catholic church's secret policy (authored by Ratzinger in 1962) which shows an advanced mechanism for covering up child abuse and protecting abusers, allowing them to offend again. I can only see that as concrete evidence of a systemic problem.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimen_sollicitationis

This documentary also deals with it:
http://video.google.com/videosearch?client=opera&rls=en&q=Colm%20O'Gorman&sourceid=opera&ie=UTF-8&oe=utf-8&um=1&sa=N&tab=wv#

95% of abusers were abused themselves (I've heard that repeated from numerous studies - links can be found by google, or i can provide some if you like) which suggests to me that a culture of abuse can become established over generations. One was on Pitcairn Island in Australia where virtually a whole island was in one way or another implicated. (That was Seventh Day Adventists.) If the Catholic Church has a system for dealing with it, I would also take that as a sign of a "culture of abuse".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pitcairn_sexual_assault_trial_of_2004

I must admit that I never really thought of it from the perspective you suggest though. And I guess I took a bit of liberty making an unjustifiable generalisation, thinking no one would call me on it.

An awful lot of teachers and child care workers are also guilty of it - where I grew up I knew of several cases where an abusing teacher was simply transfered (easier than taking him to court to dismiss him) and I know of a high up administrator who used to enjoy shocking lower hierarchy workers with child pron images.

[yakaru]

Sorry for the double post - to Citizen Deux:

I know of a nun here in Germany who worked in a prison as a counsellor. She fell in love with and married a prisoner, believing that Jesus had absolved him of his sin. He had been a convicted confidence trickster whose biggest crime had been to marry someone, get access to her bank account and then disappear with the cash.

One guess how the marriage finished up. Correct.

[techskeptic]

Tom, and others:

First I want to apologize. My writing style is not that good. I am often accused of sounding scornful, even when I am in the same camp as the people I and in a discussion with. Once, on berlzebubs blog I was talking about gay people. When my text was read without my mental intonations, it could be taken completely opposite to what I was intending. This just happened here on another thread:

"TechSkeptics original comment had the feel of an attack on Dawkin', but his further explanation makes it clear it was no such thing."

So for that I apologize. I'm not that great of a writer. Whenh I reread my text to tom above:

"I don't think I've ever seen you write like that. No links, nothing to back up these assertions?"

I sound like a total dick. Tom is one of my favorite commenters here, and writers at his place. It was not intended to sound troll like. It was truly an act of being surprised.

OK, Yakaru,

o say that religion *causes* abuse...."creates a culture of endemic perversion"

(sorry if you feel I quote mined you, its not intended). I do not understand the difference between "causes" and "creates" in your context here. Maybe the rest of your stext will help me understand how creating a culture is not the same as an unsubstantiated 'causing'

Teenage pregnancy rates drop in proportion to the quality of sex education they receive, so it is also reasonable to suggest that this implies greater control over sexual behavior.

Totally agree, and I have used that same statistic often when debating god bots who are simply wishing AO worked. And this extrapolation is just fine, but it doesn't mean that you can go the other way, its not a good extrapolation to then say: "lack of information implies perversion"

the catholic church's secret policy (authored by Ratzinger in 1962) which shows an advanced mechanism for covering up child abuse and protecting abusers, allowing them to offend again
Even if true, and it may well be what the hell do i know, that just shows that the church, completely immorally tries to cover this crap up, not that it causes it.

I think the rest of this is similar. The data we need to make a statement like that is to show a higher incidence of some defintion of perversion in a religious sect relative to a secular one, or another group or whatever, this would tel us that it is in fact a correlation at all. Once the corellation is established, then we can look for causation. I dont think we truly have either.

Here is another example:
We have laws that prevent us from driving at 120 MPh. People who do drive at 120 MPh are frowned upon as idiots. Is the law and culture causing the people who do speed at these rate the cause of their actions...or are they just idiots in the first place.

global warming is another one. We are in the process of moralizing our efficiency, which I think is great. Do SUV driving Dick Cheney loving coal burning idiots act this way becuase of the moralization, or do they simply have their own agenda from other stuff?

BY the way, as I mentioned, i 'feel' like you are totally right about religion. I also think the drinking laws cause binging in college. I dont have good data for either.

[techskeptic]

OH noes! Please fix my markup! only the quote was supposed to be bold!

[yakaru]

Techskeptic:
Your points and objections are fully valid. And I think I understood your subtext as well - it didn't sound negative or unfair. (Text is difficult - why sometimes even loving non-judgmental new agers can suddenly sound like they've turned nasty and abusive) (joke).

It is a really complex area, and I was trying to see if there was any way to make some kind of generalized argument. I also didn't realize the areas where the ground is shakier than I thought. Thanks for pointing it out.

Through my work at one point I encountered several cases of abuse by priests in church schools in secluded areas of Australia. It was clear that the abuse was systematic, long term, known and covered up. Seeing the results of it first hand has clearly colored my perception.

But that's no license to oversimplify, or to pull terms like "culture of abuse" out of the air.

Thanks for helping me unmuddle my thinking a bit more.

[Harebell]

Reading the Sacbee.com
It appears that the actual offence is
sexual misconduct of "an adult under the pastoral care" of the clergyman.
This seems like a breach of a code of ethics or professional standards. It has not been referred to the Police so "Sexual Abuse of a parishioner" is an incorrect and a seriously misleading term.
While it is certainly a huge breach in professional ethics it does not appear to be a criminal offence.
Also contrast the suspension and investigation of the incident in this case with the subterfuge practiced by the catholic church in the real abuse cases. While the episcopalians certainly erred with their belief in a gifted con-man, they haven't wasted much time removing him and investigating the incident.

[Tom Foss]

I don't think I've ever seen you write like that. No links, nothing to back up these assertions?

Believe it or not, it was a quick post :).

But I don't think you have any data to show this cause and effect. A society, religious or not that outcasts people based on some human feature is destined to have people with that particular feature go into hiding.

I don't see how that contradicts my point. I'm not saying that religion is the only source of driving people into hiding in that way, it just happens to be a particularly widespread one, and it tends to overlap with other groups that do the same (e.g., American conservatism).

I dont know. Do you? Tons of other people had the same upbringing as him without the eventual wetsuit.

I'm not saying that the religion caused his rubber-and-asphyxiation fetish. Development of fetishes is a complicated process, and it'd be simplistic with almost any fetish to try to pin it down to any single cause. I'm saying that conservative religious repression caused him to express that fetish in an unhealthy way.

I dont know. Do you? Tons of other people had the same upbringing as him without the eventual wide stance.

Yes, and there are gay guys who are into cruising and having anonymous sex in public places, without having been raised in any particularly stigmatized environment. But what proportion of those "tons of other people" with the same upbringing are gay, or at least bi enough to want to suck cock every so often? What proportion of them are unable to come to terms with their turn-ons and express them in a healthy fashion? There are plenty of straight-identified gay and bi guys who like to perform fellatio; the ones who don't treat it like a shameful, dirty secret aren't the ones who are tapping feet in men's rooms. They're going to gay bars or Craigslist and using condoms or inquiring about STD histories.

It's similar to the problems with abstinence-only sex education (which are documented), where fostering ignorance and shame doesn't keep people from acting on pre-existing urges, but does increase the likelihood that people will engage in them in unhealthy, dangerous fashions. With vanilla sex, this means refraining from using birth control, not talking about STIs or getting tested, and unsafely attempting more complicated sex acts (e.g., trying to do anal without knowing how, in order to avoid sinful/dangerous vaginal intercourse). With kinkier sex, this might mean soliciting anonymous partners or trying to do bondage and asphyxiation play without a partner.

AO sex edumacation doesnt make deviants, its just inneffective and doesn't educate.

I didn't say that it did "make deviants." I said it was ineffective at preventing teen sex, but it was effective at preventing teen safe sex and smart sex, both of which are claims supported by the studies (here's a summary).

"Deviant sexual behavior" is a slippery term with almost no value. Only as few decades ago, oral sex would have been considered "deviant;" now it's standard, even expected. Anal sex is moving in the same direction, as is BDSM. And I don't think I need to mention homosexuality and bisexuality. I wouldn't credit religion with causing any of those behaviors; nor would I credit religion with causing zoophilia, amputation fetishes, vore, chubby-chasing, or furries. What I credit religion with is fostering an environment of shame and ignorance, where people who have such "deviant" urges are discouraged from exploring them in a healthy, open fashion.

To say it causes it is an entirely different thing and I doubt very much that this claim can be backed up.

Agreed...but that's not the claim I made.

I would like to see some data on this subject, but I have no idea how one would go about collecting it. If the people you're trying to study are people who aren't willing to admit what you're trying to study, it's going to make data collection difficult. You could survey a room of Ted Haggards, asking which of them is secretly gay, but I don't imagine many of them will be giving useful answers.

So my research is largely anecdotal, based on years of paying attention to the big media stories about this sort of thing, on years of reading and listening to various sexologists and advice columnists, and on associating with lots of people. It's not scientific data, but it's also not a subject that lends itself well to a case study.

I sound like a total dick. Tom is one of my favorite commenters here, and writers at his place. It was not intended to sound troll like. It was truly an act of being surprised.

No harm, no foul, TS. I read that as you intended, and I felt a bit sheepish because of it. You're right, I was arguing without good data, and I should be aware of that. I do think you missed my point, but I may not have been particularly clear.

As to the pedophile priests, I think the problem is similar, but not the same. I think the church, in that case, provides an environment that may be attractive to pedophiles, and may end up with more pedophiles than average as a result (on the other hand, the rates of pedophile pastors and such are similar in protestant churches, but they tend more toward victimizing girls--this is from memory, but I think it's the FFRF that runs a Black Collar Crime page on just this sort of thing; I think it's from their podcast that I'm recalling this statistic, and I'll check it out eventually). It's a position of power that gives you frequent access to young boys and will protect you from prosecution if you get caught; I wouldn't go so far as to say that this is a major reason for people joining the priesthood, but it may be a contributing factor to the pedopriest problem.

[John Marley]

Citizen Deux:

I still contend that the problem is with the church having little to no control over individuals who exercise enormous power over their "clients"....Why on earth would you permit a convicted felon to become a priest, while still in prison?

You're still missing the point. It isn't about control or screening. It's about patently false xian beliefs. The guy was Saved(TM). His sins were "washed away". The xians claim that their religion changes a person, makes them morally better than everyone who is UnSaved(TM). You know, "amazing grace" and all that. If those beliefs had any truth value, the "convicted felon" part wouldn't matter. Skeptico's point was that those beliefs are clearly not true, yet xians continue to insist that we all must hold them or suffer for it.

[Richard]

I wish I could say this was a surprise - the idea that embracing religion can bring about a miraculous transformation in a person's nature seems to play to a propensity for wishful thinking that seems particularly strong within the more touchy-feely wing of Christianity. But at least in the US the rule of law is strong enough to keep the problem in check. In Central Africa we have religious groups demanding that unrepentant mass-murderers get blanket amnesties in the name of 'forgiveness': http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0800132.htm

[hazel]

Tech: "The original premise was right, religion certainly doesnt prevent bizzare or immoral behavior. To say it causes it is an entirely different thing and I doubt very much that this claim can be backed up. I fully welcome efforts to prove me wrong (i'm not making the claim)."

Just to back him up a bit further, Tom not saying that this behavior is innately "bizarre" or "immoral" except in the context of a culture ruled by puritanical despots. That's a point I'm not sure was made clear enough. (Except in the case of pedophilia or another extreme deviancy that lacks any measure of consent).

While it's not true that any religion causes these behaviors, a society's sexual norms can be linked back to its dominant religions, religions which universally advocate a "proper" role for sexuality in society. Meanwhile, we are totally unable to argue about the specifics of the sexual dysfunction of even the religions most familiar to us (we simply don't have enough evidence), however, numerous studies give us a sort of provenance for the conclusions Tom comes to.

For instance, http://moses.creighton.edu/JRS/2005/2005-11.html provides evidence that STD and teen pregnancy rates are lower in secular societies.

I've been looking for a study that examines the relationship between religion and mental illness. No luck as yet, but I think it could also help in this discussion.