Skeptics' Circle

Regular Skeptico commenter King of Ferrets is currently hosting the 99th Skeptics' Circle.  Nip on over there to read the best from the skeptical blogs from the last two weeks.

Comments

[The Perky Skeptic]

I are a Commodore! :D

[King of Ferrets]

No, you're the commissar. That means your job is to cheer the troops up, and if you can't do that shoot a couple in the head to get them working.

Most commissars in W40k are bastards, sadly.

[Sarah Palin]

Hey, can you include these videos in the next sleptics circle? They show how all vaccines cause autism and I'd love to see some skeptics refute them.
http://tinyurl.com/6plpqc

[Jimmy_Blue]

So, still a moron Bestie?

[Sarah Palin]

WOW Jimmy, that's the best refutation of anything I've ever seen by a skeptic! Call someone a moron and all the evidence just vanishes. Are there any other skeptics who can come up with better insults as a way to refute the science here?

[Jimmy_Blue]

Hey Bestie, can you include these results over on your cesspit of ignorance, lies, scientific illiteracy and disinformation?

Lack of Association between Measles Virus Vaccine and Autism

I'd love to see you anti-vaxxers refute it.

[Jimmy_Blue]

Oh sorry Bestie, you thought I was actually going to waste time refuting everything you've said, again, when we already refuted everything you said, many times over, the last time you were here.

Don't you remember?

So instead, since you've already been refuted, and since those videos almost certainly ignore all the scientific evidence that vaccinces do not cause autism, there's not much left but to point out to everyone exactly what you still are.

But I'll make a deal with you. When you can refute all the scientific studies that clearly, definitively and reliably show there is no link between autism and vaccinations, I'll look at your videos.

Oh, don't forget, you still have these questions to answer as well:

What reason do you have not to believe that all the Thimerosal has been removed from vaccines?

How does Thimerosal cause mercury poisoning?

If removing Thimerosal from childhood vaccines had no effect on reducing autism (because it's still coming from the parents' flu shots) then how do you know it was ever caused by childhood vaccines?

A lot fewer people get flu shots than get their children vaccines; still fewer get it while they're pregnant. How long does it stay in the mother's system?

What evidence do you have that chelation cures autistics?

So, were autistic kids born with "scrambled brains" before, due to the flu shots? If so, again, how could you blame childhood vaccines? If not, why has the flu vaccine started causing autism earlier than the mercury crowd used to claim?

How could Kanner (or you) say that autism had NEVER existed before 1943 if he (or you) did not have access to the medical records of every human being who had ever lived?

Why didn't mercury poisoning and widespread varied use cause autism until 1943/1931/1929?

How does chelation cure autism?

What is the chemical equation for the metabolization of some harmful mercury compound from Thimerosal in the body?

Why don't autistics exhibit the other symptoms of mercury poisoning (kidney dysfunction, ruddy faces, loss of hair, teeth, and nails, etc.) if autism is mercury poisoning?

How does HBOT cause brain cells to re-grow?

What evidence is there that autism is the result of brain cells damaged by mercury?

Why can't Best give us a detailed rebuttal of the sources I have found in the last week, when he has been researching this for years?

In what sense does he mean his son is cured of autism if he still needs treatment for it?

How does Generation Rescue respond to the accusation that it's research is not peer reviewed?

Why does Generation Rescue still claim that the work of certain scientists supports their arguments when many of those scientists have specifically stated it does not and asked to be disassociated from GR's work?

How does Best explain the contradiction of claiming the CDC cannot be trusted whilst quoting autism prevalence rates provided by CDC research?

Why does Best think life is nothing to lose for autistic children?

How does Best explain his statement that autism is never misdiagnosed when there is clear evidence that it has been in the past and still is now?

Were you aware that MeB-12 actually encourages the methylation of mercury, forming methylmercury?

Which is of course the more toxic form of mercury. You were aware of this, right?

Are you aware that Deth's paper (the one you cited) says there is a deficiency of methionine because of the restriction of methylation, not MeB-12? You were aware of this, right?

Are you aware that if Deth is right that means that autism can be diagnosed by measuring raised levels of homocystiene? Which is also a symptom of vitamin B-12 deficiency.

Here is the best bit though:

If you are right, then mercury has always prevented methylation and caused the deficiency of MeB-12. Which means autism was not caused by Thimerasol. Which means that autism existed before 1943/1931/1929. Which means you are wrong on at least one of your theories.

Which is it?

Still haven't seen you anti-vaxxers answer any of these satisfactorily or successfully. I asked you first Bestie.

[Jimmy_Blue]

Oh, just one more study for you Bestie:

A Behaviorial Marker for Autism

Don't worry, I'll keep them coming for you.

[Jimmy_Blue]

Oh what the hell, one more:

More Evidence that Autism is Genetic

Refute away Bestie.

[Jimmy_Blue]

And since we're on the subject of autism, and since Sarah Palin/Bestie has come back, let me remind you of this:

Isn't it obvious that God favored McCain because he said he'd do the right thing for autistic children?

Oh dear....

[Sarah Palin]

Jimmy,
The work of Dr Moulden has enhanced our knowledge. It proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that MMR causes autism along with every other vaccine. Wakefield was right but he didn't have all the information that is now available.

[Sarah Palin]

Jimmy,
You need to read this piece about how Harvard genuises figured out Alzheimer's is genetic. I think these guys are going to try out for comedy writers jobs.
http://hatingautism.blogspot.com/2008/10/harvard-finds-cause-of-alzheimers.html

[Skeptico]

The work of Dr Moulden has enhanced our knowledge. It proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that MMR causes autism...

...I thought it was Thimerosal. You know, the thing that was introduced just before autism appeared.

Oh and "Sarah Palin", is that you John Best?

[Sarah Palin]

Skeppy,
As I was telling Mr McCain, we all thought it was thimerosal until Dr Moulden showed us this advancement in science. I don't think you skeptics understand that science just keeps coming up with new information. You people have to have open minds.

[Tom Foss]

Summarize his "advancement in science" for us, then, Best. What is it about vaccines that causes autism, and why did you think it was thimerosal before? If it's not thimerosal, does chelation still "work" on it?

[Jimmy_Blue]

Apparently Bestie you've learned nothing, still ignoring questions and burying your head in the sand whenever there is evidence that completely and utterly refutes your position.

You also still apparently suck at doing research. Here's a skeptic refuting your Dr Moulden videos:

Vaccines cause "microvascular strokes" that cause autism?

Don't worry though, its only one of the most noted internet based skeptics. And he is only a surgeon. And the post has only been up for a month. And I found it by typing 'Dr Moulder Autism' into Google. So I found this refutation even though I spelt the name wrong.

You suck.

Don't worry though, I am sure there will be something else you can tell us is 'absolutely definitely really truly the cause of autism this time. For real. I'm not kidding.'

I mean, since you believe the Illuminati are somehow involved maybe it was JFK and Elvis?

Answer the questions, refute the mountains of counter evidence to your position or shut up.

[Techskeptic]

Jimmy,

whats funny is that in that article you linked to, John Best is specifically called out. According to Orac, even John Best thinks 'Dr.' Moulder is a crank. That's pretty amazing.

[Sarah Palin]

Jimmy,
I found this challenge from Dr Moulden so you can go collect $10,000 from him and send him to jail if you can prove him wrong. Should be easy money for one of you scientists.
http://tinyurl.com/62was5

[Skeptico]

Skeptico replies to “Sarah Palin”

I asked you before if you could confirm if you are indeed John Best. Because it is less than honest to pretend to be someone else. And, you know I have a rule against sock puppets. Now, I won’t complain if you want to be called Sarah Palin from now on (strange choice, but up to you), but as a courtesy, and as you are posting on my blog, I’m asking you to confirm or deny. Your IP address is the same town as before, and the posting style is the same. So – yes or no?

[King of Ferrets]

Why is someone calling herself Sarah Palin posting about vaccines in a thread about my Circle, even though it didn't mention vaccines?

Slightly off topic, here.

Might as well refute some stuff, anyway.

I found this challenge from Dr Moulden so you can go collect $10,000 from him and send him to jail if you can prove him wrong. Should be easy money for one of you scientists.

A) Why the hell would he go to jail?
B) It says that the audience would decide. The audience that would most likely be full of antivax nuts. ...Yeah.
C) He'd probably never admit he was wrong anyway. Antivax nuts rarely admit that they're wrong. High-profile antivax nuts, assuming he is one, even less so.

[Sarah Palin]

Ferret,
You have not addressed the matter of vaccines causing strokes at all. So you haven't refuted anything.

Skeppy,
I opt to use a pseudonym so vaccine company shills won't break into my house and inject my kids with dangerous vaccines while I'm sleeping.

[Skeptico]

I’ll take that as a yes.

You now say the MMR vaccine causes autism ("beyond a shadow of a doubt"). But you wrote here:

The people who talk out of their asses are the idiots here who insist that thimerosal is not the cause of the autism epidemic.

You know MMR never had Thimerosal in it, right? So do you now accept the people you were referring to were not idiots, and that you were the idiot who was talking out of his ass? If not, why not?

You also wrote:

Chelation cures autism by removing mercury…

Since chelation removes mercury, and MMR has no mercury in it, how did chelation cure autism? Or are you now saying chelation doesn’t cure autism?

[Sarah Palin]

This reference to extraneous comments does not address Dr Moulden's contention that autism is the result of strokes caused by all vaccines. It doesn't sound like you will be able to collect the $10,000.

[yakaru]

"Sarah", Jimmy_Blue already posted a link demolishing Moulden's contention about strokes and autism. I'm curious about your answer to Skeptico's questions. Looks to me like you've been nailed.

[Jimmy_Blue]

So Bestie, still refusing to read refutations or counter evidence?

Answer the questions, refute the mountains of evidence that shows vaccines do not cause autism, and answer Orac's post demolishing Dr Moulden's nonsense. Or shut up.

You really are taking paranoid conspiracy theory to an entirely new level. I mean. Wow. Let me guess though, these pharma shills would wear all black designer suits with shades and fly in silent helicopters from their base at Area 51 and/or Roswell and Princess Diana was killed by them because she knew that the Illuminati had JFK killed since he knew they were really responsible for autism. And it's all controlled by Elvis. From his base on Mars. Where he lives with aliens. Who don't use vaccinces. And 9/11, well that was just Pharma shill G W Bush destroying a secret thimerasol production facility in the twin towers, right? And Bin Laden, well he needs medical treatment doesn't he? Think about it.

Sarah Palin, she has to be a joke. Right?

[Skeptico]

Best:

Do you now accept the people you were referring to before were not idiots, and that you were the idiot who was talking out of his ass? If not, why not?

Since chelation removes mercury, and MMR has no mercury in it, how did chelation cure autism? Or are you now saying chelation doesn’t cure autism?

Answer the questions.

[Joseph]

It appears that John Best was for Moulden before he was against him. And now he's for him again. Plus he's given up the thimerosal hypothesis after all these years of insisting on it, in favor of an even older hypothesis, the MMR one. I think I have a headache.

[Sarah Palin]

Orac is a well known quack who has no first hand knowledge about autism. If he actually knew anything, he'd have already called Moulden and collected the $10K.

This new information does not invalidate anything we already knew about thimerosal. It enhances our knowledge so we may be able to cure all of the children (and idiotic adults who diagnosed themselves) who were not cured by chelation alone.

However, I don't think Dr Moulden will be able to help poor Jimmy since stupidity is genetic.

[Tom Foss]

Orac is a well known quack who has no first hand knowledge about autism.

And you're a well-known kook who has no knowledge--first, second, or third-hand--of science or medicine. What's your point?

This new information does not invalidate anything we already knew about thimerosal.

So, which causes the problems? The thimerosal, or the micro-stroke-creating additives? How would chelation do anything to the micro-stroke damage?

And what about all the other questions you've refused to answer, Best? Until you demonstrate that you can read, I don't think you have room to call anyone an idiot.

[yakaru]

That is a pathetic answer.

Orac gave a very specific point for point rebuttal of Moulden. If it is wrong, you need to explain why. Not having first hand knowledge of autism has nothing to do with his rebuttal, and just calling him a quack is no argument at all unless you can back it up with reasons.

Also you have not even attempted to answer Skeptico's questions.

[Ryan W.]

Oh sweet Jeebus I haven't gotten to point out fallacious thinking for a while now!

Orac is a well known quack who has no first hand knowledge about autism. If he actually knew anything, he'd have already called Moulden and collected the $10K.

Ad Hominem! Easy one there, I'll give myself 5 points.

And I'd like an answer to this one also:

Since chelation removes mercury, and MMR has no mercury in it, how did chelation cure autism? Or are you now saying chelation doesn’t cure autism?

[King of Ferrets]

Orac, a quack? BAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA no.

I did, to a degree, refute something, btw: The idea that anyone could possibly win the 10,000 dollars.
By the way, first hand knowledge means little in the face of overwhelming evidence.

What in MMR, exactly, causes autism, since it has no thimerosal? Why is autism no longer just mercury poisoning?
Here's a few other questions you've been asked, copied from the source.
First, a few not entirely vaccine-related questions:
First, mine:

Why is someone calling herself Sarah Palin posting about vaccines in a thread about my Circle, even though it didn't mention vaccines?

And the question asked by everyone, as phrased by our esteemed host:

I asked you before if you could confirm if you are indeed John Best. Because it is less than honest to pretend to be someone else. And, you know I have a rule against sock puppets. Now, I won’t complain if you want to be called Sarah Palin from now on (strange choice, but up to you), but as a courtesy, and as you are posting on my blog, I’m asking you to confirm or deny. Your IP address is the same town as before, and the posting style is the same. So – yes or no?

And, of course, the huge list of questions about the actual vaccine stuff, in a semi-random order (Remember the ones I posted up top of my post when answering these):

What reason do you have not to believe that all the Thimerosal has been removed from vaccines?

What is it about vaccines that causes autism, and why did you think it was thimerosal before? If it's not thimerosal, does chelation still "work" on it?

Since chelation removes mercury, and MMR has no mercury in it, how did chelation cure autism? Or are you now saying chelation doesn’t cure autism?

You know MMR never had Thimerosal in it, right? So do you now accept the people you were referring to were not idiots, and that you were the idiot who was talking out of his ass? If not, why not?

How does Thimerosal cause mercury poisoning?

If removing Thimerosal from childhood vaccines had no effect on reducing autism (because it's still coming from the parents' flu shots) then how do you know it was ever caused by childhood vaccines?

A lot fewer people get flu shots than get their children vaccines; still fewer get it while they're pregnant. How long does it stay in the mother's system?

What evidence do you have that chelation cures autistics?

So, were autistic kids born with "scrambled brains" before, due to the flu shots? If so, again, how could you blame childhood vaccines? If not, why has the flu vaccine started causing autism earlier than the mercury crowd used to claim?

How could Kanner (or you) say that autism had NEVER existed before 1943 if he (or you) did not have access to the medical records of every human being who had ever lived?

Why didn't mercury poisoning and widespread varied use cause autism until 1943/1931/1929?

How does chelation cure autism?

What is the chemical equation for the metabolization of some harmful mercury compound from Thimerosal in the body?

Why don't autistics exhibit the other symptoms of mercury poisoning (kidney dysfunction, ruddy faces, loss of hair, teeth, and nails, etc.) if autism is mercury poisoning?

How does HBOT cause brain cells to re-grow?

What evidence is there that autism is the result of brain cells damaged by mercury?

Why can't Best give us a detailed rebuttal of the sources I have found in the last week, when he has been researching this for years?

In what sense does he mean his son is cured of autism if he still needs treatment for it?

How does Generation Rescue respond to the accusation that it's research is not peer reviewed?

Why does Generation Rescue still claim that the work of certain scientists supports their arguments when many of those scientists have specifically stated it does not and asked to be disassociated from GR's work?

How does Best explain the contradiction of claiming the CDC cannot be trusted whilst quoting autism prevalence rates provided by CDC research?

Why does Best think life is nothing to lose for autistic children?

How does Best explain his statement that autism is never misdiagnosed when there is clear evidence that it has been in the past and still is now?

Were you aware that MeB-12 actually encourages the methylation of mercury, forming methylmercury?

Which is of course the more toxic form of mercury. You were aware of this, right?

Are you aware that Deth's paper (the one you cited) says there is a deficiency of methionine because of the restriction of methylation, not MeB-12? You were aware of this, right?

Are you aware that if Deth is right that means that autism can be diagnosed by measuring raised levels of homocystiene? Which is also a symptom of vitamin B-12 deficiency.

Here is the best bit though:

If you are right, then mercury has always prevented methylation and caused the deficiency of MeB-12. Which means autism was not caused by Thimerasol. Which means that autism existed before 1943/1931/1929. Which means you are wrong on at least one of your theories.

Which is it?

Answer the goddamn questions, or shut the fuck up and go away. Otherwise, I'll stop paying attention, and encourage others to do so too.

[King of Ferrets]

Answer the ones that popped up while I was compiling my post, too.

[Skeptico]

Best:

I note you STILL did not answer the questions. Simple questions that arose from your posts. Here they are again:

1) Do you now accept the people you were referring to before were not idiots, and that you were the idiot who was talking out of his ass? If not, why not?

2) Since chelation removes mercury, and MMR has no mercury in it, how did chelation cure autism? Or are you now saying chelation doesn’t cure autism?

Why won't you answer the questions?

[Joseph]

Clearly, John is not interested in answering questions or being logical. He's only interested in getting a check from the vaccine injury compensation program, whatever it takes.

[Sarah Palin]

http://www.brainguardmd.com/pdf/chapterfour.pdf

[Tom Foss]

He's only interested in getting a check from the vaccine injury compensation program, whatever it takes.

So the horses aren't paying off the way they used to, then?

[Skeptico]

It seems that "Sarah Palin" has as much difficulty answering questions as the real Sarah Palin. Perhaps I've made it too difficult for her. OK Sarah, one at a time.

You previously wrote this:

The people who talk out of their asses are the idiots here who insist that thimerosal is not the cause of the autism epidemic.

But you now say the MMR vaccine causes autism ("beyond a shadow of a doubt").

So (and here's the QUESTION), were the people you referred to, who insisted that thimerosal was not the cause of the autism - were they idiots talking out of their asses for so insisting?

Yes or no.

[King of Ferrets]

That PDF was... colorful.

Was that supposed to answer the questions? If so, either point us to the pages, or shut the hell up.

[Sarah Palin]

Thimerosal contributes to brain damage, something you would know if you read the homework I gave you.

Mr Ferret, Please have some manners.

[Skeptico]

Sarah:

Does Thimerosal cause autism?

Yes or no.

[King of Ferrets]

See Skeptico's Why I won't read your book. Summary: Why bother wasting the time researching your stuff if your premise makes no sense in the first place?

Your premise doesn't make sense. You haven't bothered trying to explain in this thread how the hell both thimerosal and MMR cause autism. If both cause autism, but it's caused by mercury, and there isn't any mercury in MMR, then it makes no sense. I'm not going to bother researching the crap you post if it makes no sense.

Last chance. I suggest everyone just ignore him if he doesn't even try to answer the questions, otherwise

[Sarah Palin]

Skeppy,
All vaccines cause autism. Thimerosal by itself also causes autism. I was always skeptical about vaccines causing autism that did not have mercury but now the process how this occurs has been described for us. So, now we can stop using all vaccines.

Now you can do something useful with your skepticism and try to decipher which odds on favorites will lose races. This is easier than you might imagine but I doubt ypou guys will be able to figure it out.

[Techskeptic]

KoF:
Last chance. I suggest everyone just ignore him if he doesn't even try to answer the questions, otherwise
oops. But I'm always interested in the latest nonsense from a crack pot.

Bestie:
I was always skeptical about vaccines causing autism that did not have mercury but now the process how this occurs has been described for us
Really? Did you understand any of that link? Perhaps you care to summarize it, showing us how well you understood it. I guarantee you that you haven't the slightest idea of what was said in that (because nothing was).

All you do..is check if the authoer is anti-vaccine and then you beleive it. Its quite a psychosis you have.

Have you fixed your autistic kids? Yet? Why arent they fixed? you said that chelating them fixes it.

Bestie, did you have a vacciation as a kid?

[King of Ferrets]

I hereby sentence you to being ignored, by me at least.

I encourage others to do the same thing.

[Jimmy_Blue]

Oh Bestie:

Dr Moulden is a well known quack who has no first hand knowledge about autism. If he actually knew anything, he'd have already called James Randi and collected the $1,000,000.

Since his theory apparently requires the supernatural.

However, I don't think Dr Moulden will be able to help poor Jimmy since stupidity is genetic

If it is then I have no worries (and science has enough problems defining intelligence, nevermind determining its origins). Seen any white dwarfs lately Bestie?

All vaccines cause autism.

So we all have autism?

So, now we can stop using all vaccines.

Wow, that's a great idea. Bring back smallpox I say.

Good grief.

Answer the questions, refute the mountains of evidence that show vaccines do not cause autism, or shut up.

[techskeptic]

Moving on...

Page 15:
Mobius syndrome is congential. Autistic kids can move their eyes. One has nothing to do with the other.

oh i get it. Mobius syndrome may be caused by oxygen depletion from temporary loss of blood flow during pregnancy therefore autism is caused by oxygen depletion from a completely different made up and so far undescribed mechanism from a completely different source.

Pictures from unreferenced sources that may or may not have and psychological problem, may or may not have had vaccines near the time of the picture.

Page 16:
same as 15
Completely random meaningless blurds all over the page.

Page 17:
same as 16

Do i see Taquaria Williams on 16 and 17? She has lupus, an auto immune disease. Yeah, a vaccine might have given her an adverse reaction.

yeah over 6000 adverse ractions, which incluse reactions like 'soreness'. 94% of those were minor. How stupid and alarmist.

Page 18:
neither of the two reports say anything about vaccines. Conflation.

Picture of 'anoxia zones' without defining how you recognize one of these made up zones. These zones are simply pointed to ad hoc.

Page 19:
This is just a bunch of garbage. It says Day 1-9 without describing anything in particular to each of those days. Three pictures of 3 different kids eyes without description of what is supposed to be going on.

Still and again, nothing here describes any cause and effect between vaccines, zeta potential, oxygen depletion, non-newtonian fluids, or coagulation. Its just a set of pictures that just jump from vaccine injection to the made up syndrome of MASS.

page 20:
Sigh, standard mercury militia poster. Jenny McCarthy would be proud. The answer to most of that is "So What?"

Biblical quote?!? you gotta be kidding.

Yes yes, and the standard Big Pharma fear mongering. Any evidence that they are actually tilting double blind (bane of the woo) FDA studies? If not, step off.

Page 21:
The Big Pharma scare tactics continue.

If scientists shouldn't be accepting grants to test drugs, who do you propose should get the money to test drugs? Dealers?

This continues until page 25. Hey, 'Dr.' Moulder shold hook up with Kevin Trudeau. Its the same schtick. Maybe their criminal histories are the same.

basically, if you want to claim conspiracy theory, you have to prove a conspiracy without just using symptoms of capitalism and circumstantial evidence. Which study was specifically corrupted by Big Pharma and in which way?

Page 26:
more plagiarism

M.A.S.S.” in human physiology, including vaccine induced autism-spectrum disorders and all other chronic ailments that emerge from foreign agents entering the mammalian body and bloodstream.

MASS was useless before because it was made up and the anoxic region are not able to be found because they are not defined. It was useless because it had no causes (just large words that had nothing to do with anything). but now... now its useless becuase apparently its the cause of literally everything. By the claim above, when I get an infection from a splinter...its MASS. Common Cold, yeah that MASS too.

REFERENCING 1997 WAKEFIELD!?!? LOL!

Page 27:
Each of these activities increases the non-specific immune
system, response, lowers zeta potentials, and causes microscopic to macroscopic intravascular
coagulation as a part of the normal healing process in mammalian tissue
None of these claims were supported by anything in this document so far.

In battle, the white blood cells can cause considerable collateral damages especially if hyper stimulated or induced to wage war over with multiple “battalions” over a protracted period of
time.

talk about equivocation! Completely meaningless. This equivocation continues for the entire page, without evidence.

Page 28. Its kind of like homeopathy. Any one homeopathic remedy cures basically anything. MASS disorder is from any foreign substance entering the body, therefore vaccines are just as bad as and no different than a splinter or the common cold.

Therefore MASS and anything that regards MASS as a valid foundation is completely useless.

This thing...i have no idea what to call it, completely ignores everything about how we do science.

Observation
Hypothesis
Test
Verification
Prediction.

Of these steps, only hypothesis was done.

Hey I have a hypothesis: The winners of horse races are those horses that have subjected to frequent quantum distortions on days with higher than average cosmic ray infiltration through the atmosphere. Now that you know how horses win the race you should be able to predict winners.

What? My hypothesis has left you with an inability to predict a winner? Why? I gave you the reason a horse wins! When you can explain why my horse winning hypothesis is bunk, you will understand why this Mouldon thing is complete bunk.

[Sarah Palin]

Techskeptic,
Your explanation sounds reasonable.

If this Moulden was legit, it would make those people who say "too many too soon" also sound legit. I wondered if they had known about Moulden for a long time and had just started up with that slogan with nothing to back it up because they had this guy advising them or something.

What do you think is behind that "too many too soon" stuff? Do you think there is any science there or is that just Kirby trying to dance away from the thimerosal connection that he never really believed?

You see, when you had a normal kid and watched him disappear before he had an MMR shot, you know that something happened to him. Then when you watch him turn human again after you remove at least some of the mercury, you know you found part of the solution. So, if mercury can make kids as severe as mine was, maybe there is no solution for them. You have to keep looking though. Perhaps you only can gain some improvement from the mercury damage and never bring the kid all the way back.

But, why would anyone go to all this trouble to present something they knew was bogus? That's the part that makes no sense.

[Skeptico]

Sarah wrote:

You see, when you had a normal kid and watched him disappear before he had an MMR shot, you know that something happened to him. Then when you watch him turn human again after you remove at least some of the mercury, you know you found part of the solution.

Sarah, you do know MMR never had any mercury in it, right?

[Sarah Palin]

Yes Skeppy, I knew that but it was hypotheized that MMR caused autism before people figured out mercury was a cause. So, whether MMR has anything to do with autism or not is immaterial as far as my kid is concerned.

I'd like to see proof one way or the other but it won't make any difference to me personally.

Why do you keep asking me that? Do you understand that my kid became autistic before he had his MMR shot?

[Skeptico]

Sorry, I thought you were saying his problems began after the MMR shot.

Even so, if MMR causes autism too, how can chelation cure it?

[Techskeptic]

I have to admit, when first started looking into vaccinations (becuase I had a baby coming - who is now 2, fine, and vaccinated), I also thought that it was bad form to have more than one injection at a time.

HCN set me straight (after much frustration in the HCN was not reading my posts, just spouting off). I don't remember the exact links, but it is very clear that your body handles multiple infections every day. Further, there are papers at the CDC where they actually have studied the effect of not only quantity of vaccinations, but the chronology also.

We still asked our doctor to administer only one shot at a time. Here is why: Each shot has a change of side effect which is usually allergic. Even though strong side effects have a 1:1,000,000 change, my baby could have been that one. If it was going to happen I didnt want any confusion about which vaccination caused it.

So we have the same vaccinations as everyone else, with the same timing, but where other folks have shots once in 3 months, we have one shot every month (well she's two so we dont need to go every month).

Still, DTaP and MMR are single shots, we didnt ask for those to be separated out. We arent afraid of the antigen, we are worried about an allergy.

Now that she has gotten one of each kind of vaccination, we still ask for only one shot to be given because we dont know about allergies to a particular batch or if one manufacturer has a slightly different process than another. Once again if there is an allergic side effect, I want to know which one it is that did it. we doi the exact same thing with new foods, we dont feed her more than 1 new food at a time, so we know immediately which food causes any reaction.

So, no, too many too soon, doesnt make sense with regard to the generation of antibodies, these are continually being generated for all sorts of stuff. adding one or two to the list of daily invasions doesnt really seem to be an issue.

-tech

[Techskeptic]

ack, for some reasons I kept typoing 'change' insterad of 'chance'. I have no idea why..

[Techskeptic]

jeez, what is wrong with me today?

[Jimmy_Blue]

Bestie:

But, why would anyone go to all this trouble to present something they knew was bogus? That's the part that makes no sense.

Right, because there is no money involved in this at all.

How much does Moulden charge for his forensic evidence again?

[King of Ferrets]

Ah, Sarah Palin still hasn't answered the questions. And just made what appears to be a heel face turn for no particular reason or something. What the hell?

I tagged you with a meme over at my place, Skeptico, if you're interested.

[Jimmy_Blue]

Well Bestie, you and your ilk must be very proud of yourselves:

BBC article, Q&A: Measles

Cases of measles are rising, figures show, amid continuing poor uptake of the MMR vaccine.

...

Around one in every 15 children have complications which include chest infections, fits, encephalitis (swelling of the brain), and brain damage.

In very serious cases, measles can be fatal.

...

In the first 10 months of 2008, there were 1,049 measles cases - more than the whole of 2007.

It is the first time the number of cases has topped 1,000 since 1995, the Health Protection Agency reports.

So far this year, 150 children have been admitted to hospital with complications and one child has died.

In 1998 there were just 56 cases in England and Wales.

Congratulations scumbags, you and the poor childs moronic parents helped kill an innocent victim because of your anti-science idiocy.

So, I'm sure you must be very proud. Bravo.

[Skeptico]

Jimmy:

Thanks for the tip - see my new post on this subject.

To keep things simple, I'm closing the comments to this post. If you want to comment on this story please do so on the new post: Reduced MMR Equals More Measles