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March 28, 2009

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Excellent write up, Skeptico, excellent.

I note Srinivasan didn't mention in his article that the study was done by Dean Radin. Omitting that name is already data mining.

Wow. You demolished that study so resoundingly that I predict there will be a bump in the global consciousness today.

no control....*shudders*

Clarifications in agreement with skeptico:
1. i agree that no illnesses were cured in this study.
2. i think that the flaws that you point out in this study are valid and entirely accurate. this is probably why it is not published in nature or science. however, the medical literature offers a wide variety of studies to contemplate. perhaps this article would have been better suited to a journal like “medical hypotheses” which is a well recognized journal for exploratory work. i do think that exploratory work deserves a voice. my ambivalence about calling this purely exploratory, is that for studies of its kind, the double-blind procedure was unusual and therefore differentiated it from other similar studies. i am ambivalent about this.
3. i agree that more control groups would have made the findings much more robust. further studies are needed to confirm these findings.
4. i think your “eda” questions are valid. i would have included this and the other points you made in an explicit limitations section. i think that most studies have limitations.

Slight differences of opinion:
1. while skin conductance is by no means histology, in the measurement of peripheral autonomic responses, it is a fairly standard tool used in medical research. my own opinion is that as a stand alone test, it is a very broad and general statement about peripheral autonomic function and it is best used in conjunction with other measures to increase certainty. here are some examples of recent articles in prominent scientific journals in the last year that used skin conductance:

1. McTeague, L.M., et al., Fearful imagery in social phobia: generalization, comorbidity, and physiological reactivity. Biol Psychiatry, 2009. 65(5): p. 374-82.
2. Ramachandra, V., N. Depalma, and S. Lisiewski, The role of mirror neurons in processing vocal emotions: evidence from psychophysiological data. Int J Neurosci, 2009. 119(5): p. 681-90.
3. Robinson, J.L. and H.A. Demaree, Experiencing and regulating sadness: Physiological and cognitive effects. Brain Cogn, 2009.
4. Sokol-Hessner, P., et al., Thinking like a trader selectively reduces individuals' loss aversion. Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A, 2009.


i think that what this illustrates is that radin did not depart from standard traditions in measuring peripheral autonomic functions.

2. one of the benefits that this kind of exposure provides, I think, is that an exploratory study like this invites criticisms from mindful readers that can help to improve future studies. if dean radin reads this, it might be helpful to him. if other people want to do these studies, it might be helpful to them too. i, for one, am grateful for your insightful analysis.

3. post hoc analyses are a standard statistical procedure. i think that it was admirable that the authors called it this and did not pretend that this was part of the initial analyses. while I agree that there is a certain amount of fishing in post hoc analyses, “post hoc” reveals the fishing, so I prefer for these to be reported than not, in general. can they be said to be the same as analyses based on a priori hypotheses: no. are they interesting: yes…to me, and to some others, anyway.


Clarifications in my defense:
1. although I did not initially like to the abstract, I provided the reference and continued the discussion. i think that the temperament of my writing was one of sharing the interesting results of a study that i had come across. it was not to write a scientific review article or to proclaim some strong feeling about data that i thought met the highest levels of scientific rigor. however, i take the points of many readers and will do my best to refer to authors when I write material of this nature in the future.

2. i find the responses to my post to be ignoring of the fact that i advised caution against just accepting this kind of finding. also, i pointed out cases in which this did not work and mentioned that this can also have adverse effects. i think this substantiates my actual position on this subject, which is that i find it interesting (as did many people, clearly-even if they disagreed with it) and inconclusive. the many paranoid responses that I got wondering if i was trying to surreptitiously represent a stronger point of view than I actually had does not resonate with me, except that the inaccuracy of this supposition makes me a bit defensive.

Objections to the reactions:
1. for people who are so accurate and interested in representing the “truth”, the eagerness to jump to conclusions that are certain about me and my beliefs is quite remarkable given the limited data that are available. simply, they are quite inaccurate and overlook many of my intentions.

2. it does not behoove a liberal newspaper to be attacking or discouraging of differences in opinion. the way in which president obama chose his colleagues should be evidence enough of this. we cannot transform our society if we only preach to the converted. to me scientific fanaticism is as dangerous as religious fanaticism. i feel very strongly about the uselessness of empty attack. most people who would want to disagree with you would not feel free to. when we lose the voice of any group of dissenters, we lose the voice of the total people.

Conclusions:
to that extent, I am very grateful for the evolution in my conversation with skeptico, and took the time to reply to his blog because i value conversation and I think that many of his objections are valid within the context that i presented them here. our conversation skeptico has been challenging, difficult but transforming in a helpful way to me. it is this kind of transformation that argument is meant to achieve, I think-not repetitive defensiveness without any insight. thank you for that.

to srini pillay:

just one thing, you say "more control groups"....... I would say AT LEAST ONE control group since there was not a single one for reference.
if you are going to test a chemical reaction between two substances, you leave one test-tube with a solution of water and substance A, and you don't add substance B to that tube, you add it to another tube so if the thing adds color to the water or precipitates to the bottom as a solid, you can be sure that it was the combination of substances A and B that caused the reaction, and not just substance A on water.
(also, having a test tube with substance B on water, and maybe one with just water).

sorry if my example is not rigurous enough, and for the bad english,
but I think that the lack of a control group, single-handedly invalidates the experiment.

Pillay: "2. it does not behoove a liberal newspaper to be attacking or discouraging of differences in opinion. the way in which president obama chose his colleagues should be evidence enough of this. we cannot transform our society if we only preach to the converted. to me scientific fanaticism is as dangerous as religious fanaticism. i feel very strongly about the uselessness of empty attack. most people who would want to disagree with you would not feel free to. when we lose the voice of any group of dissenters, we lose the voice of the total people."

This is bullshit for four reasons: 1) Liberal is right there in the quote. You're sorta diametrically opposed to quite a few ideas in the first place. 2) It's not an opinion, it's claiming an idea with little support, no plausibility, and evidence against it is fact based on flawed research. 3) Scientific fanaticism? This is us pointing out that something isn't supported by science. Saying "hey, there's no evidence this crap is true" and explaining why isn't really fanaticism. 4) It's not an empty attack, it's a logical argument bringing up valid points against a flawed paper.

Sorry, but lack of a control group means the study is worthless and poorly designed. Lack of readings for the "doing nothing time" (as Skeptico notes) means that the study is so poorly designed that Radin was either incompetent or outright deceitful.

And for this paragraph in your article, I also call you deceitful:

This experiment showed that intention can affect a partner's body across distance outside of consciousness and that if one is trained in compassionate intention, the effect is greatest. In fact, other studies have also shown that distant healing can heal small sized tumors.

1. The study did not show that, as you acknowledge in your comment here. So why did you tell your readers it did?

2. Which "other studies" have shown distant healing can heal tumors? Do these studies really exist? Are they as shonky as this one? It always stuns me how frivolously people like you throw around the claim you've got a cure for cancer.

Also, from your comment here:

i agree that more control groups would have made the findings much more robust. further studies are needed to confirm these findings.

There was no control group in the study. The "control groups" were there to test "how much" not "if at all". Big fail.

one of the benefits that this kind of exposure provides, I think, is that an exploratory study like this invites criticisms from mindful readers that can help to improve future studies. if dean radin reads this, it might be helpful to him.

What? Those are glaring and stupid errors. And why didn't you share this opinion with your readers, intead of suggesting it's a cure for cancer?

i think that the temperament of my writing was one of sharing the interesting results of a study...

Your whole article was based on the assumption that distant healing is a proven phenomenon. Show even one sentence containing the possibility it has absolutely no effect. (The first sentence already leapfrogs the idea.) The temperament of your writing is the same as the temperament of your comment. Deceitful, trying to hold the door open long enough to let as much self-serving esoteric bullshit through as possible.

i find the responses to my post to be ignoring of the fact that i advised caution against just accepting this kind of finding. also, i pointed out cases in which this did not work and mentioned that this can also have adverse effects.

More bullshit. You said that there are some situations where distant healing doesn't work, already predicating that there are situations where it does. Slippery, deceitful logic.

i think this substantiates my actual position on this subject, which is that i find it interesting (as did many people, clearly-even if they disagreed with it) and inconclusive.

Here, you use the word "inconclusive", as if you are undecided whether or not distant healing works. But that is not what you wrote in your article. The only "inconclusive" there was in which situations it works. Equivocation. Two-faced deceitfulness.

many of [Skeptico's] objections are valid within the context that i presented them here.

The objections have completely demolished the credibility of the study, and therefore of your article too. You failed to acknowledge any of the glaring, fundamental errors, and chose instead to talk of curing cancer.

And how about the references for those studies which

have also shown that distant healing can heal small sized tumors.

Good for Dr. Pillay. He came into unfriendly territory to defend himself. Kudos.
However:

i feel very strongly about the uselessness of empty attack. most people who would want to disagree with you would not feel free to. when we lose the voice of any group of dissenters, we lose the voice of the total people.

Lucky for my that I find being called a hateful, nihilistic, fanatical scoffer more funny than intimidating.
Love the word "shonky", yakaru.

If you could heal someone in this way, it would be logically possible also to harm someone in the same way--in fact there is already a name for that: cursing (as with a magic spell). But if it were really possible to do that, and the technique has been known as long as there have been written records (which cursing has been)--don't you think it would have been put to military use by now? That it would have been developed into a science by now?

(Sorry for the reductio ad absurdam, but the whole thing is so ridiculous--goodbye laws of physics!)

What does it even mean for the autonomic nervous system "to become activated"? I'm pretty sure mine is active right now...

That's because someone is healing you right now, Dunc! Feel the power through your body! SEND ME MONEY!

I would suggest an "EXPLORE: The Journal of Science and Healing" tag for this post and tracking and/or reviewing "Explore." From what I can tell its very purpose is to misrepresent woo as verified by a "peer-reviewed" journal.

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