Comments on Easter and God the VictimTypePad2009-04-12T16:27:29ZSkepticohttps://skeptico.blogs.com/skeptico/tag:typepad.com,2003:https://skeptico.blogs.com/skeptico/2009/04/christopher-hitchens-todd-friel-jesuss-crucifixion-easter/comments/atom.xml/Skemono commented on 'Easter and God the Victim'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451df0c69e201157041ebad970b2009-04-23T02:17:47Z2010-09-24T12:59:57ZSkemonohttp://profile.typepad.com/SkemonoTo the people minimizing how much of a sacrifice the crucifixion would have been -- there aren't a whole lot...<p><blockquote>To the people minimizing how much of a sacrifice the crucifixion would have been -- there aren't a whole lot of ways to die that are more drawn-out and agonizing than that. And why would you presume that Jesus would have known he'd be resurrected a few days later?</blockquote><br />
Simple: because Jesus supposedly is/was God. And God supposedly is omniscient, omnipotent, and eternal. Therefore he (A) knew the future and/or (B) planned the whole thing himself, including the resurrection. Plus, (C) since Jesus/God is all-powerful, he couldn't really be killed <i>anyways</i>. Going through the motions of a crucifixion when you're all-powerful is not an action of sacrifice.</p>
<p>If we take the Christians at their word that Jesus is God--and I should remind you that most Christians would find it blasphemous to claim that he isn't / wasn't--then the crucifixion was nothing but an elaborately staged event. There was no sacrifice involved.</p>King of Ferrets commented on 'Easter and God the Victim'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451df0c69e201156f49deec970c2009-04-22T20:38:40Z2009-04-22T20:38:40ZKing of Ferretshttp://ferretcage.blogspot.comCrucifixion is definitely outclassed by a lot of other ways to die. Starvation? You can last a couple weeks without...<p>Crucifixion is definitely outclassed by a lot of other ways to die. Starvation? You can last a couple weeks without food if you've been properly nourished before; very slow death. (Though much faster if you don't have water either) Disease? Plenty that kill slower than crucifixion. Torture? You can survive <i>years</i> of torture without dying, if the torturer wants you to.</p>
<p>The rest of your post kinda works, though it goes a bit against what most Christians believe in my experience.</p>Steve commented on 'Easter and God the Victim'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451df0c69e20115703d7463970b2009-04-22T12:23:00Z2009-04-22T12:23:00ZSteveI'm skeptical about Christianity, but I think I may have an explanation you're not considering. I think perhaps what it's...<p>I'm skeptical about Christianity, but I think I may have an explanation you're not considering. I think perhaps what it's really about is that Jesus, who is basically supposed to be the spirit of God constrained by the physical limitations of a man (body and brain), decided that mankind was worth sacrificing himself for, therefore giving mankind the ultimate seal of approval to the main part of God (because there is some independence between Jesus and God). Sacrificing to God(s), of course, has been a major part of many religions, often intended as a sign of atonement; Jesus sacrificing himself was therefore supposed to be one huge "I'm sorry on behalf of all of us" to God. </p>
<p>Anyway, perhaps Jesus was supposed to be on Earth to allow God to see mankind from a different perspective (plus to pass on some advice). Seeing mankind in this new light perhaps convinces God that he needs to create a special place for those of us who were good people (Heaven). </p>
<p>So while the truth of it all may be dubious, I don't think the ideas are as nonsensical as you make them out to be. I think the key is taking the perspective that Jesus is not exactly the same as God himself, but is a piece of God who's acting as a go-between. And yes, God was supposed to have a grudge against humanity, but sending Jesus was supposed to be giving us a fair chance to change his mind.</p>
<p>To the people minimizing how much of a sacrifice the crucifixion would have been -- there aren't a whole lot of ways to die that are more drawn-out and agonizing than that. And why would you presume that Jesus would have known he'd be resurrected a few days later? </p>
<p>Regarding "Original Sin": most people, myself included, have a problem with the idea of being judged for something they had nothing to do with. Doesn't that also describe racism? Both involve bearing a grudge against a whole group for the actions of a few. If you can say that God is not (or wasn't always) completely fair and unbiased, or at least that he used to be more critical of us (perhaps until he saw what it was really like to be a human), you can reconcile this issue.</p>Paul Sunstone commented on 'Easter and God the Victim'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451df0c69e20115702a6f7a970b2009-04-19T06:21:03Z2009-04-19T06:21:03ZPaul Sunstonehttp://cafephilos.wordpress.com/Hi Bronze Dog! I agree luck had a lot to do with it. I also think their willingness to aggressively...<p>Hi Bronze Dog! I agree luck had a lot to do with it. I also think their willingness to aggressively proselytize played a major role. Not all cults were as aggressive as the Christian one.</p>TC commented on 'Easter and God the Victim'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451df0c69e2011570259d79970b2009-04-17T12:55:55Z2009-04-17T12:55:55ZTChttp://theconsigliere.blogspot.comExactly. I wonder why Hitch didn't just say what you said, instead of going into the more difficult (yet just...<p>Exactly. I wonder why Hitch didn't just say what you said, instead of going into the more difficult (yet just as correct) point about freedom from unatural obligation.</p>YogaforCynics commented on 'Easter and God the Victim'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451df0c69e201157024fe10970b2009-04-17T06:43:23Z2009-04-17T06:43:23ZYogaforCynicshttp://yogaforcynics.blogspot.comIn the immortal words of Patti Smith: "Jesus died for somebody's sins, but not mine." No question, fundamentalist/literalists worship a...<p>In the immortal words of Patti Smith: "Jesus died for somebody's sins, but not mine."</p>
<p>No question, fundamentalist/literalists worship a sadistic egomaniac who created people for the purpose of worshipping him and will torture them eternally if they don't. Lately I've been reading a lot by more intelligent, compassionate Christians (the kinds of people most Christians wouldn't consider Christians at all) who tend to see things far more metaphorically. And, in fact, I like a lot of what they come up with. Personally, though, I prefer metaphors that haven't been used to justify so much murder, slavery, racism, sexism, homophobia, etc.....<br />
</p>yakaru commented on 'Easter and God the Victim'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451df0c69e201156f2dba24970c2009-04-16T22:57:22Z2009-04-16T22:57:22ZyakaruHere's something which as far as I know, no theologian has ever discussed. The Holy Ghost got Mary pregnant, right?...<p>Here's something which as far as I know, no theologian has ever discussed. </p>
<p>The Holy Ghost got Mary pregnant, right? And the Holy Ghost is part of the Holy Trinity, along with God and Jesus, right? </p>
<p>So, the first unavoidable corrollary of this is that Jesus had sex with his own mother - the Old Testament is full of insest, so no big problem there. But the second is a bit more surprising; namely that that literally makes Jesus his own father.</p>
<p>I don't know why no one has ever used that as evidence of Jesus' ability to work miracles.</p>NoAstronomer commented on 'Easter and God the Victim'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451df0c69e2011570215eac970b2009-04-15T20:54:55Z2010-06-12T09:29:15ZNoAstronomerhttp://profile.typepad.com/6p01156f27b5b4970cI'm with Tom and Skemono, what's a days worth of crucifixion compared to an eternity in heaven. With or without...<p>I'm with Tom and Skemono, what's a days worth of crucifixion compared to an eternity in heaven. With or without omnipotence.</p>
<p>Furthermore how come Jesus gets off easy? Must be nice to have connections in the justice system.</p>
<p>Further-furthermore how is his one day of suffering supposed to equate to me spending an eternity in a pit of fire. Why don't I get the option?</p>
<p>Love the 'nailed down' comment!</p>Tom Foss commented on 'Easter and God the Victim'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451df0c69e20115701efeb9970b2009-04-15T04:46:43Z2010-05-25T06:33:45ZTom Fosshttp://profile.typepad.com/6p01157013ff96970bSoil Creep: I bought into the "Jesus in the Orient" hypothesis for some time, but I've been a bit more...<p>Soil Creep: I bought into the "Jesus in the Orient" hypothesis for some time, but I've been a bit more skeptical of it since a commenter <a href="http://dubitoergo.blogspot.com/2006/01/true-christianity.html" rel="nofollow">suggested its racist roots</a>. The ideas of Buddhism weren't isolated, and I don't know that there's any real reason to posit Jesus's travels in Southeast Asia. Given the shaky evidence for his existence at all, let alone for the truth of the reported details of his life, I think it's difficult to say anything about what the real Jesus did or said, assuming he even existed.</p>
<p>As to Dionysus, he's not the only one. The various tropes of the Jesus story are present throughout mythologies around the world, but particularly around the Mediterranean. At the very least, I think this is evidence that the Jesus story was mythologized and fictionalized according to the conventions of the day. </p>
<p>I don't think it's a very extraordinary claim to suggest that there was an itinerant Jewish preacher with an apocalyptical bent roaming around Judea in the first century (in fact, it seems that there were several). It's not even that extraordinary that he said some stuff that eventually got recorded by followers. But when we start getting into the details of the life of a person who may or may not have ever lived, we're running onto shaky ground. </p>Pelger commented on 'Easter and God the Victim'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451df0c69e20115701de66b970b2009-04-15T00:32:27Z2009-04-15T00:32:27ZPelgerI wonder if 2000 years from now, people will believe seriously as if it was real, another tragedy about a...<p>I wonder if 2000 years from now, people will believe seriously as if it was real, another tragedy about a fallen hero that was the chosen one and had powers and stuff.....<br />
darth vader anyone?. I thought of him with the "the fallen hero behind the mask" thing,<br />
hehe, maybe in 2000 years what we all know today to be fiction, will be twisted, confused with factual data, the remaining parts of the books and movies that talk about anakin skywalker will be taken as "gospels"....</p>
<p>I wonder who would be god in that scenario... master yoda? obi-wan?</p>Soil Creep commented on 'Easter and God the Victim'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451df0c69e201156f258ed5970c2009-04-14T17:21:43Z2009-04-14T17:21:44ZSoil CreepI'm agnostic and certainly not a Christian, however I was raised Christian and studied philosophy so I have more than...<p>I'm agnostic and certainly not a Christian, however I was raised Christian and studied philosophy so I have more than a working familiarity with the Christ myth. More than the idea of the crucifixion, I enjoy trying to work out where the myth and historical reality begin and end. A lot of these ideas have been debunked, but debunked by believers, so I'm not sure where that leads us.</p>
<p>Forgive the scattershot of ideas: but the most fascinating aspect of the Christ myth IMO is the connection to Dionysus, Greek drama, and religious sacrifice in general. Greek dramas originally were religious in nature and among other things would usually include an animal sacrifice to the gods. This latter evolved into the greek "tragedy" a word that comes from the Ancient Greek: τραγῳδία, tragōidia, "goat-song" (wiki) which point to the sacrificial nature of the event. But instead of a animal/goat the sacrifice became the fallen-hero behind whose mask was in fact dionysus (though that point is more debatable).</p>
<p>One might also recall in Euripides, the Bacchae, Dionysus himself is explicitly onstage having traveled through Asia having gathered his band of wild women worshippers, but it is Pentheus who is decapitated by his own mother at the end (more too it than that of course).</p>
<p>That the real Christ may have traveled to Asia is a point of speculation, but it would explain his radical re-thinking of scripture at that time. I believe historians have debunked the massacre of the innocents by Herod so I've abandoned the idea that the real Christ allowed himself to be martyred because he was suffering from survivor guilt.</p>
<p>But I believe the Christ myth through the early church borrows heavily from the Dionysus cult, the greek tragedy, etc - we find this in the "Passion Play" directly not to mention the use of wine as a symbol in Christian mythology. An idea Nietzsche used well, if somewhat sloppily, but I think he was unto something.</p>
<p>In any case I'm already bored with all this which is probably why I'm a soil scientist. But the Christ myth is certainly interesting when you look behind the curtain, but its the Church that spoils the fun.</p>Big Al commented on 'Easter and God the Victim'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451df0c69e201156f220fc9970c2009-04-13T21:17:02Z2009-04-13T21:17:02ZBig Alhttp://www.ajarchibald.wcpauthor.comAnd what about original sin, with which we're still all supposedly burdened from birth, despite the monumental sacrifice? Is that...<p>And what about original sin, with which we're still all supposedly burdened from birth, despite the monumental sacrifice? Is that because Jesus got let off early and didn't go through the full crucifixion experience (days for most victims)?</p>Bronze Dog commented on 'Easter and God the Victim'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451df0c69e201157018a444970b2009-04-13T18:49:09Z2009-04-13T18:49:09ZBronze Doghttp://rockstarramblings.blogspot.com/Don't forget the classic, "Yeah, he was hiding behind the couch the whole time." I do like the "nailed him...<p>Don't forget the classic, "Yeah, he was hiding behind the couch the whole time."</p>
<p>I do like the "nailed him down" response. However did I miss that in my years of skeptical blogging? :)</p>deep commented on 'Easter and God the Victim'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451df0c69e2011570184b38970b2009-04-13T16:45:17Z2009-04-13T16:45:17Zdeephttp://worldlessonperspective.blogspot.com/A very common way to answer "Have you found Jesus?" is "Is he lost?". That usually discombobulates them enough to...<p>A very common way to answer "Have you found Jesus?" is "Is he lost?". That usually discombobulates them enough to make a quick getaway if they are accosting you on the street. If you don't care about further offending then I usually add in with something along the lines of "Maybe they nailed him down because he was so hard to keep track of.". That usually takes care of it.</p>TechSkeptic commented on 'Easter and God the Victim'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451df0c69e201157017dc8f970b2009-04-13T13:33:42Z2009-04-13T13:33:42ZTechSkeptichttp://profile.typepad.com/6p01053614d1f8970bGosh I wish I could remember all these nice little examples when I get in one of these conversations. Knowing...<p>Gosh I wish I could remember all these nice little examples when I get in one of these conversations. Knowing me I'll go "uhhhhh..... wha?"</p>yakaru commented on 'Easter and God the Victim'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451df0c69e201157017b81d970b2009-04-13T12:00:14Z2009-04-13T12:00:14ZyakaruWhat gets me is the way they keep blabbering on about how god gives hope to the down-trodden and the...<p>What gets me is the way they keep blabbering on about how god gives hope to the down-trodden and the weak. But he stood by idly and watched his own son get tortured to death. He didn't lift a finger. And this is the same character who supposedly steps in to help bacteria build their cute little flagella. Weird set of priorities if you ask me.<br />
</p>Tom Foss commented on 'Easter and God the Victim'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451df0c69e201156f2050b0970c2009-04-13T03:57:30Z2010-05-25T06:33:45ZTom Fosshttp://profile.typepad.com/6p01157013ff96970bQjet: i gotta say, it sounds like christopher is being an obstinate child on the show. hey i agree with...<p>Qjet: <blockquote>i gotta say, it sounds like christopher is being an obstinate child on the show.</p>
<p>hey i agree with him, but refusing to follow a hypothetical situation</blockquote><br />
That's not what Hitchens was doing. Friel posed a "What if X, wouldn't you therefore say Y?" and Hitchens said "no, given X, I wouldn't say Y." The only thing Hitchens wasn't going along with was Friel's script. Even if God created me, I wouldn't say that he "owned" me. Even if Jesus died for me, I wouldn't consider it a particularly great or generous act--it's not a generous act to correct your own mistake, and it's certainly not generous to use it as blackmail for eternity thereafter. Even if you accept Friel's premises, his conclusions do not necessarily follow, which is precisely what Hitchens was trying to show. </p>
<blockquote>becuase you know the result is compromising your principles to win an argument</blockquote>
I think "compromising your principles" would be allowing the schmuck to run through his scripted argument without pointing out the gaping holes in it. I mean, even though it <i>is</i> a waste-of-time exercise in "what if I were right, wouldn't you say I'm right?" the argument isn't one where the conclusions are necessarily implied by the premises.
<blockquote>and that makes you a true fagot.</blockquote>
Classy.
<p>deep: <blockquote>I don't get the whole "punishment I deserve" thing anyway. What the hell have I done that makes me deserve to get crucified?</blockquote><br />
No, no, you deserve to <i>be tortured forever</i>, and your crime was <i>being born</i>, because someone (who never existed) didn't understand right from wrong and didn't therefore recognize the wrongness in disobedience. But Jesus paid for your eternity of torture in Hell with a day of torture on Earth and a few hours in Hell, and so now you only deserve eternal torture for the crime of being born if you commit the second crime of not being adequately reverent of this great act of sacrifice. </p>
<p>Skemono: <blockquote>What really gets to me is the belief that some people have that Jesus being crucified was somehow a noble act of sacrifice on his part. But he supposedly comes back just three days later.</blockquote><br />
Yeah, exactly. If you told me that I could be whipped, beaten, and nailed to a tree until I died, but less than three days later I'd be <i>God</i>, I'd take the deal without hesitation. What's a few hours of torture when it's followed by an eternity of omnipotence? </p>Bronze Dog commented on 'Easter and God the Victim'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451df0c69e201156f1ffcd2970c2009-04-13T00:42:55Z2009-04-13T00:42:55ZBronze Doghttp://rockstarramblings.blogspot.com/Skemono's point in slogan size: "Jesus had a bad weekend for your sins!" Paul: My guess is that they got...<p>Skemono's point in slogan size: "Jesus had a bad weekend for your sins!"</p>
<p>Paul: My guess is that they got lucky: <a href="http://rockstarramblings.blogspot.com/2009/04/blasphemy-time.html" rel="nofollow">Christianity started out as just another of countless apocalypse cults</a>. They're just the one in a million that got lucky enough to stick around until they got established.</p>Skemono commented on 'Easter and God the Victim'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451df0c69e201157016c4bf970b2009-04-12T22:55:17Z2010-09-24T12:59:57ZSkemonohttp://profile.typepad.com/SkemonoWhat really gets to me is the belief that some people have that Jesus being crucified was somehow a noble...<p>What really gets to me is the belief that some people have that Jesus being crucified was somehow a noble act of sacrifice on his part. But he supposedly comes back just three days later. Is giving someone your life's savings a sacrifice on your part if you know you'll get it back three days later? If you could save someone by donating a vital organ, knowing that it would regrow good as new three days later, wouldn't you? Would that be a sacrifice on your part? It would be a temporary inconvenience, I'm thinking.</p>
<p>And if Jesus is God, then all this is madness. A supposedly omnipotent, omniscient, eternal, immortal being is nailed to a plank of wood, and we're supposed to be in awe at this "sacrifice"?</p>Paul Sunstone commented on 'Easter and God the Victim'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451df0c69e201156f1fa8f4970c2009-04-12T21:19:47Z2009-04-12T21:19:47ZPaul Sunstonehttp://cafephilos.wordpress.com/Great analysis! There are so many things wrong with the Christian story that you'd think their religion would have died...<p>Great analysis! There are so many things wrong with the Christian story that you'd think their religion would have died out centuries ago. </p>deep commented on 'Easter and God the Victim'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451df0c69e201156f1f874d970c2009-04-12T19:51:37Z2009-04-12T19:51:37Zdeephttp://worldlessonperspective.blogspot.com/I don't get the whole "punishment I deserve" thing anyway. What the hell have I done that makes me deserve...<p>I don't get the whole "punishment I deserve" thing anyway. What the hell have I done that makes me deserve to get crucified? I don't think anyone deserves that sort of treatment.</p>yakaru commented on 'Easter and God the Victim'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451df0c69e20115701651d5970b2009-04-12T18:49:52Z2009-04-12T18:49:52ZyakaruWhich question did he refuse to answer? His answers were unexpected, that's all. The whole "what if" set up is...<p>Which question did he refuse to answer? His answers were unexpected, that's all. The whole "what if" set up is designed to get around people saying "prove it" or reufsing to believe God gave them all this stuff. Hitchens unravelled it by accepting the hypothetical and giving an unexpected answer.</p>
<p>"What if God gave you life, would he have the right to ask something in return?" "No", with reasons is not what was expected.</p>
<p>He didn't avoid any of the hypotheticals.</p>
<p>(I don't like the guy much, but I thought that was first class for an off the cuff 10 minutes.)</p>Qjet commented on 'Easter and God the Victim'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451df0c69e201157016358e970b2009-04-12T17:48:49Z2009-04-12T17:48:49ZQjeti gotta say, it sounds like christopher is being an obstinate child on the show. hey i agree with him,...<p>i gotta say, it sounds like christopher is being an obstinate child on the show.</p>
<p>hey i agree with him, but refusing to follow a hypothetical situation becuase you know the result is compromising your principles to win an argument<br />
and that makes you a true fagot. </p>yakaru commented on 'Easter and God the Victim'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451df0c69e201157016264a970b2009-04-12T17:15:50Z2009-04-12T17:15:50ZyakaruI liked Hitchens' point about there being no commandment for good treatment of children. Fits perfectly with the deliberate targeting...<p>I liked Hitchens' point about there being no commandment for good treatment of children. Fits perfectly with the deliberate targeting of the young by religious predators. "Thou shallt not fill the minds of the youth with idiotic poisonous garbage. Thou shallt respect their freedom."</p>
<p>Apart from that, he did a great job of not just demolishing a large amount of Christian nonsense, but also exposing fallacious logic.</p>