Comments on Cargo Cult ReligionTypePad2009-06-11T03:56:35ZSkepticohttps://skeptico.blogs.com/skeptico/tag:typepad.com,2003:https://skeptico.blogs.com/skeptico/2009/06/cargo-cult-religion/comments/atom.xml/Big Al commented on 'Cargo Cult Religion'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451df0c69e20120a77583be970b2009-12-23T13:36:08Z2009-12-23T13:36:08ZBig Alhttp://www.grimm-dragonblaster.com...the perceived position of science and scientists in the modern world. Their all-encompassing position of power in society has usurped...<blockquote>...the perceived position of science and scientists in the modern world. Their all-encompassing position of power in society has usurped a position that was long held by religion and religious leaders.</blockquote>
<p>Hayley, science has no power that does not come from common consent. Religion in days past had the power to subjugate people and kill them if they did not conform.</p>
<p>I am entitled to ask a scientist, "why do you believe that?" and expect an answer. I am also entitled to disagree with him, although he may reasonably ask me on whhat grounds I am disagreeing.</p>
<p>I don't have to kneel and kiss Richard Dawkins' hand to show my respect: indeed, I can call him a self-important charlatan and turn my back on him without fearing for my life or wellbeing. </p>
<p>Science modifies itself as time goes on and new evidence comes to light - I can see no sign of religions doing so even after the passage of centuries.</p>
<p>Scientists in no wise enjoy the social status of high priests. </p>Hayley commented on 'Cargo Cult Religion'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451df0c69e20120a771b58a970b2009-12-22T13:48:51Z2009-12-22T13:48:51ZHayleyFirstly, he is not exactly a journalist but a philosopher with a specific interest in Nietzsche. You are generalising and...<p>Firstly, he is not exactly a journalist but a philosopher with a specific interest in Nietzsche. <br />
You are generalising and "showing ignorance" by not researching the person you so consistently criticise. </p>
<p>Secondly, when he makes the claim about not knowing how "they" know the age of the earth, he making a personal epistemological point. This is not laziness. </p>
<p>Thirdly, you are missing the point with the comparison between science and religion: it is a cultural observation, reflecting upon the perceived position of science and scientists in the modern world. Their all-encompassing position of power in society has usurped a position that was long held by religion and religious leaders. </p>
<p>This, to me, does not seem to be an internal attack on the credibility of scientific practice (although epistemologically it is not at all an impossibility...) but rather a reflection on the relation between a dominating force in society (science) and the individual human being. </p>
<p>You are misconceiving its message, its purpose and its tone. <br />
</p>yakaru commented on 'Cargo Cult Religion'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451df0c69e201157021e20e970c2009-06-15T23:01:04Z2009-06-15T23:01:04ZyakaruI think the trouble with the article isn't so much the author's lack of scientific understanding, but the way he...<p>I think the trouble with the article isn't so much the author's lack of scientific understanding, but the way he deals with the issues from a totally egotistical perspective. He hasn't bothered to really deal with what he saw. He relates it to his knowledge of Nietzsche because that's what really interests him, and his mood on that particular day. It all goes by without touching him.</p>
<p>Ken Ham has come up behind him and screwed him up his intellectual butt, and he just shrugs it off. He's obviously smart enough to understand what's going on, but is just too lazy to think it through.</p>WScott commented on 'Cargo Cult Religion'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451df0c69e2011570212688970c2009-06-15T21:23:55Z2009-06-15T21:23:55ZWScottBut trust is not faith, and trusting experts in areas where we are not experts, is not religion. I agree...<blockquote>But trust is not faith, and trusting experts in areas where we are not experts, is not religion.</blockquote>
I agree this is the crux of the matter. The problem, as Stern inadvertently illustrates, is this distinction isn’t self-evidently obvious to many non-scientists. The question is: who do you consider an “expert?” Someone who has spent years studying the matter? By that standard, Jenny McCarthy really is an expert on autism. (Put down the pitchforks – I’m using this as a negative example!) Someone with the right degree? There are plenty of quacks out there with degrees, not all of them from diploma mills.
<p>A better answer might be “someone who does real science.” But that presupposes that you understand the scientific method well enough to distinguish good science from junk science. Without that understanding, it does look – from the outside – a lot like faith. </p>
<p>IMO, a lot comes down to better explaining science as a process – and a self-correcting one at that – rather than just a collection of facts. </p>Skeptico commented on 'Cargo Cult Religion'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451df0c69e201157114b918970b2009-06-15T14:14:27Z2009-06-15T14:14:27ZSkepticohttp://profile.typepad.com/Skeptico:-) Thanks - typo fixed.<p>:-)</p>
<p>Thanks - typo fixed.</p>King of Ferrets commented on 'Cargo Cult Religion'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451df0c69e2011571127721970b2009-06-15T05:04:42Z2009-06-15T05:04:42ZKing of Ferretshttp://ferretcage.blogspot.com...I can't figure out if the above comment is sarcastic or not...<p>...I can't figure out if the above comment is sarcastic or not...</p>hazel commented on 'Cargo Cult Religion'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451df0c69e201157112511e970b2009-06-15T03:47:50Z2009-06-15T03:47:50ZhazelMuch like doctors' stupid adherence to chemotherapy rituals in the face of obviously homeopathically treatable cancers. Way to equate the...<p>Much like doctors' stupid adherence to chemotherapy rituals in the face of obviously homeopathically treatable cancers.</p>
<p>Way to equate the value of a stupid ritual (negligible or negative) with scientific method (overwhelmingly positive).</p>Tom S. Fox commented on 'Cargo Cult Religion'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451df0c69e20115701b23aa970c2009-06-14T22:12:23Z2009-06-14T22:12:23ZTom S. FoxIn reality, the “rituals” of science (which are not “rituals”, but procedures), since they are performed for a reason, are...<blockquote>In reality, the “rituals” of science (which are not “rituals”, but procedures), since they are performed for a reason, are further from religion <b>that</b> the rituals of baseball etc.</blockquote>
<p>Skeptico, when will you finally learn the difference between <i>than</i> and <i>that</i>?</p>Liveliest Crib commented on 'Cargo Cult Religion'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451df0c69e2011570146242970c2009-06-13T22:04:44Z2009-06-13T22:04:44ZLiveliest Cribhttp://profile.typepad.com/LiveliestCribBut trust is not faith, and trusting experts in areas where we are not experts, is not religion.Exactly! The difference...<blockquote>But trust is not faith, and trusting experts in areas where we are not experts, is not religion.</blockquote>Exactly!
<p>The difference between trust and faith is something science-is-another-faith advocates fail to grasp.</p>valhar2000 commented on 'Cargo Cult Religion'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451df0c69e2011570fc150c970b2009-06-12T12:37:02Z2009-06-12T12:37:03Zvalhar2000All Tom Stern ahs done is showcase his ignorance, a virulent ignorance at that. It is virulent because he uses...<p>All Tom Stern ahs done is showcase his ignorance, a virulent ignorance at that. It is virulent because he uses his ignorance as though it were knowledge (or the ignorance of Nietzsche as though it were knowledge).</p>
<p>As David Basset says, not at all surprising when coming from a journalist. What happened to that golden age when journalists learned about subjects before reporting on them? Maybe it never existed...</p>Ryan Michael Whitmore commented on 'Cargo Cult Religion'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451df0c69e2011570f91f8c970b2009-06-11T23:30:44Z2009-06-11T23:30:44ZRyan Michael Whitmorehttp://ninetyfivepercent.blogspot.com/When priests can put man on the Moon, or send a message to computer users around the world, or cure...<p><i>When priests can put man on the Moon, or send a message to computer users around the world, or cure a serious ailment at a specified time - using prayer alone - I might take note of the similarities it has with science.</i></p>
<p>Well, of course we didn't go to the Moon - it was a hoax. And God/Jesus/Thor/Odin/Shiva talks to people all the time. Finally, people will always believe that prayer cured whatever ailment someone had no matter the medical treatment they had; in the end goddidit and these people are so close minded nothing could convince them otherwise.</p>
<p>Dunno, sounds like something a bleever would think...</p>David Bassett commented on 'Cargo Cult Religion'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451df0c69e2011570f5aa3f970b2009-06-11T16:12:55Z2009-06-11T16:12:55ZDavid BassettBeing a fan of the Bad Science blog I am totally unsurprised that a journalist fundamentally misunderstands how we arrive...<p>Being a fan of the <a href="http://www.badscience.net/" rel="nofollow">Bad Science blog</a> I am totally unsurprised that a journalist fundamentally misunderstands how we arrive at a scientific consensus.</p>richard commented on 'Cargo Cult Religion'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451df0c69e2011570f563ba970b2009-06-11T15:20:31Z2009-06-11T15:20:32ZrichardHe has incorrectly blended ritual with procedure. While they could be viewed as very similar the difference lies in the...<p>He has incorrectly blended ritual with procedure. While they could be viewed as very similar the difference lies in the end result. A ritual does not produce anything save for the happy fellings of the faithful. A procedure produces a tangible product.</p>GDad commented on 'Cargo Cult Religion'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451df0c69e2011570f543dc970b2009-06-11T14:58:32Z2009-06-11T14:58:32ZGDadhttp://profile.typepad.com/obscurifer"But trust is not faith..." I love it.<p>"But trust is not faith..."</p>
<p>I love it.<br />
</p>AndyD commented on 'Cargo Cult Religion'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451df0c69e201156fff3a07970c2009-06-11T10:53:50Z2009-06-11T10:53:50ZAndyDhttp://thinkingisreal.blogspot.comWhen priests can put man on the Moon, or send a message to computer users around the world, or cure...<p>When priests can put man on the Moon, or send a message to computer users around the world, or cure a serious ailment at a specified time - using prayer alone - I might take note of the similarities it has with science.</p>Dunc commented on 'Cargo Cult Religion'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451df0c69e2011570f3f150970b2009-06-11T09:29:39Z2009-06-11T09:29:39ZDuncI wonder if Stern regards receiving financial advice as being like religion too? There's ritual (the Ritual of the Statements...<p>I wonder if Stern regards receiving financial advice as being like religion too? There's ritual (the Ritual of the Statements and Receipts, the Ritual of the Tax Return, etc), there's the impenetrable mystery, the edicts from on high... I guess my accountant is a High Priest of The Church of Finance.</p>tk commented on 'Cargo Cult Religion'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451df0c69e201156ffec706970c2009-06-11T06:25:11Z2009-06-11T06:25:12Ztkafter having just ligated my nth PCR reaction into pCS2+ and transformed some bugs picked the colonies grown the minis...<p>after having just ligated my nth PCR reaction into pCS2+ and transformed some bugs picked the colonies grown the minis digested the minis run the gel etc etc etc i can indeed attest that most scientific "rituals" are tedious to the nth degree [ ;) ] and most people would rather do anything else except "perform" them. with the exception, of course, of the post-seminar beers and pizza.</p>Chayanov commented on 'Cargo Cult Religion'tag:typepad.com,2003:6a00d83451df0c69e201156ffec2a9970c2009-06-11T06:08:04Z2009-06-11T06:08:04ZChayanovI find it telling that Stern finds the the time to mention Nietzsche seven (count them) times (why?) but apparently...<blockquote>I find it telling that Stern finds the the time to mention Nietzsche seven (count them) times (why?) but apparently doesn’t have ten seconds to put earth is four billion years old into Google and find out how we know the age of the Earth.</blockquote>
<p>Telling, but not especially surprising.</p>